Prices Bounce Back at 85 Adams

1.

No surprise, DUMBO is the hottest hood in BKLYN and prices should go up - not down. Amenities are flying in along side the celebs and models.

Did you see the NY1 piece on DUMBO, average sale 1.2 mil. Bring your checkbook kids, up we go.

2.

As I am looking at all the new construction and condo converstion that is happening in Brooklyn and Manhattan - the new tall buildings are coming up almost everywhere - I am asking myself the same question: who is buying all those apartments? Are these bought primarily by rich people that just looking for place to invest their money in? Are all those people going to live in those apartments?

For example, in Downtown Manhattan, several corporate builldings have been converted into condos.

How are people able to absorb all this new real estate?

3.

Except you missed the point. In general prices are going up in the nabe. But they had them priced at this level and they did not move, they sold very few. So they slashed the prices and they started to sell. So instead of raising them a bit they put them back to the original price (or slightly higher), which was proven to be too high! Its idiocy. If they were selling qucikly you raise them a bit, but with these new prices it will slow down to a crawl again. Good job Melissa and Millie.

4.

As I am looking at all the new construction and condo converstion that is happening in Brooklyn and Manhattan - the new tall buildings are coming up almost everywhere - I am asking myself the same question: who is buying all those apartments? Are these bought primarily by rich people that just looking for place to invest their money in? Are all those people going to live in those apartments?

For example, in Downtown Manhattan, several corporate builldings have been converted into condos.

How are people able to absorb all this new real estate?

5.

As I am looking at all the new construction and condo converstion that is happening in Brooklyn and Manhattan - the new tall buildings are coming up almost everywhere - I am asking myself the same question: who is buying all those apartments? Are these bought primarily by rich people that just looking for place to invest their money in? Are all those people going to live in those apartments?

For example, in Downtown Manhattan, several corporate builldings have been converted into condos.

How are people able to absorb all this new real estate?

6.

Dumbo is the hottest nabe in the world! Screw you Manhattanites HA HA HA HA HA I laugh and laugh at your flatlining apartment "values". We bought in Dumbo and we are making OODLES of MONEY. Losers!

7.

The developer sets the prices - not the brokers.
Do ppl hate brokers so much that they automatically assume anything wrong is the broker's fault?

8.

Leo, this issue really troubles you doesn't it?

9.

VDH, technically you are right, but its usually on the advice of the broker. So either the broker gave bad advice or the developer did not heed their advice. If the developer is smart, they will listen to their broker, as thats their connection to the market. So you're right its a 50-50 shot if the broker is the problem.

Its not that brokers are bad or that I hate them, its just that in any profession working off of commisions there are always problems, the emphasis is placed on moving something not doing their job the best for all parties. There are good ones out there, sure but all of the economic incentives are setup to thwart them.

10.

#9 Nope, not in new developement.
Practically you are wrong. The brokers come in long after the numbers have been done to ascertain selling prices of the first tranche of units that need to sell before the offering plan can be declared effective.

I have bought new construction and the listing brokers did not know the units that well, let alone the prices.

What you are talking about is more apt when applided to the general public selling an place.

Judging by Boylmegreen's recent history, I would bet all my RE holdings that he or his guys are playing footloose with the pricing and yes, ignoring the brokers.
In new construction, the pricing schedule is pretty much set in advance with the need to seel

These price adjustments require filing amendements to the offering plan every single time to the AG's office and I doubt very much that, given the

11.

applided = applied
Whole sentance should have said:

What you are talking about is more apt when applied to the general public selling their own place

12.

VDH, true, but I have been involved in development and we always ask for the expert opinion of the brokers. Otheriwse what he heck are we paying them for? If all they are going to do is show the apt I will hire a college kid for $8 an hour to sit there, hell $15.

"I have bought new construction and the listing brokers did not know the units that well, let alone the prices."
I would have mentioned this to the developer, as they obviously got screwed, or were control freaks.

As far as selling new construction goes, the numbers may have indeed been run long before (they must have to see if the plan was feasible) but they always get changed based on the chnaging market.... this is why you go with a broker.

In this case, based on their track record it may indeed be the developer ignoring the advice of the broker, or they keep using the same brokers.

13.

VDH, what's a tranche (#10)?

14.

Hey Dumbo Rox in #6, don't you have to sell and move out of DUMBO to make your "OODLES of MONEY"? In the mean time, the value of your house is going up, you are paying more taxes to the city, and I sit in my stablized place with the City getting more money from you guys to do more things for me!!!! I hope all apartment taxes (I guess I mean prices) increase 10X!!!!!

15.

Ultimately, aren't all these pricing issues a bit besides the point? Thanks in no small part to great websites like Curbed, buyers who do their research now know that these prices are negotiable and have lots of benchmarks for setting their first bids. And even without hard evidence like this, buyers who assume prices are set for new construction in this environment are robbing themselves.

Even back in the glory days, I was often told by brokers that prices were negotiable and I should feel free to bid, particularly on the last, usually less desirable apartments in a given building. (Interestingly enough, aptsandlofts brokers were much more likely to say "just make an offer" than DG or Corcoran brokers, make of that what you will.) A few buildings were hot enough to make the "buy now or the prices will go up in a week" routine believable, but those days are now gone I'd say - good riddance!

16.

Holy Shnikes, I am rich! The price of my 787 square foot Dumbo "loft" is skyrocketing. I am going to detail my Iroc, reserve that summer house at the shore, buy myself a nice shiny pinky ring, and start studying for my RE broker's license (since RE is where the money is!)...

17.

you're weird

18.

DD, is Dumbo full of meatheads with Irocs? I never heard that before. I thought the knock on the neighborhood was that rich investment bankers were displacing poor artist-types.

19.

I used to be a stockbroker on the Island. But now I have classed it up, and made my move to the hip outskirt of NYC....such great deals here in Dumbo. I am daytrading now, which reminds me, I have to go before the market closes...I am buying a buttload of Google...I got mad smarts.

20.

Sellers, owners, sponsors/developers pay the brokers their commission and not buyers. Can we make that clear here. Purchasers employ/hire brokers to assist/negotiate/get first dibs on new developments and they do not, I repeat do not pay the broker's commission.

21.

Who said they did? The posts above are talking about the developers paying the broker fee.

22.

Damn! First I miss the Barney's warehouse sale... now this. Back to retail for 85 Adams condo's...

23.

Welcome Mr. Dumpo! You day trading, pinky ring wearing stud. We are glad to have you as a neighbor. Parking is a little tight in Dumbo so you might have to day trade a little harder so you can pay for indoor parking (Irocs are "one of none" here) to protect you investment

Our area is not quite like Staten Island. But, if the real estate thing doesn't work out you can earn some extra cash and at the same time bring some of your SI flavor by starting a Sunday morning car wash using the fire hydrant on Washington and Front.

24.

IF ANYONE DID THEIR DUE DILIGENCE AND CALLED THE 85 ADAMS OFFICE, YOU WOULD KNOW THE PRICES OF ALL THE ONE BEDROOMS LISTED ARE THE SAME AS BEFORE, AND THAT CORCORAN HAD TO POST THE AMENDMENT PRICES ONLINE UNTIL THE PROPER AMENDMENT WAS FILED. THE PRICES HAVE NOT RISEN SINCE THE PRICE DECLINE. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, CALL CORCORAN...

25.

YES BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE DUE DILIGENCE IN THIS MATTER, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL LAWYERS. GOD FORBID THEY PUT THIS ON THE SITE AS TO NOT SCARE AWAY POTENTIAL BUYERS, I GUESS THEY DID NOT DO THEIR DUE DILIGENCE. COUGH...COUGH.. ok thats better, try caps off ANON.

26.

#24 - I don't understand what you wrote at all. I'm not sure exactly how many sets of prices Corcoran had, but let's call set "A" the prices up until late 2005, when they dropped to set "B". Then the prices dropped again around MLK day to set "C" (the current prices). Those prices were posted on the web site. Yet, after the open house, the prices were jacked, not back to set "A" or "B", but to an entirely new set, higher than ever before (set "D"). I don't think there ever was an amendment filed with those highest prices. If Corcoran could only post prices that were filed in an amendment, shouldn't set "B" have been the prices posted?

27.

Looking at the price list on the Corcoran site, apparently the prices have changed yet again on some of the units. 14C is now $560k (as of 6:48pm on Corcoran); was $745k; was $560k.

Yikes. Wish the sponsor would make up their mind.

Does the sponsor want to close these units and get paid or default the existing purchasers already in contract by affecting their ability to obtain mortgages.

This could really reek havoc on existing purchasers of Beacon already in contract (especially purchasers with no finance contingency that still need the mortgage to close).
Hope the appraisers don't get wind of this, get confused and peg a lower value on the Beacon units and refuse to lend on % of the higher value, when the purchaser has already signed for the higher price.

All this in addition to confusing the crap out of everyone considering purchasing at Beacon. What is the unit really worth? I don't think the sponsor even knows.

Is the sponsor an amateur?

Who are Beacon's sponsor and principals?

28.

Corcoran is clueless, and that is why the pricing went up on the site. The prices never actually changed after the reduction, but they claim they had to post old prices due to the law. Probably a lie, as the lower prices are back up and I doubt they could have filed an amendment by now. I don't think this is going to affect appraisals, as an appraisal is based on a comparison and the comps nearby are 70 washington, main st, etc. all of which are priced high!

29.

I think that the change in prices, will affect purchasers at Beacon.

First, as any developer knows, you never make official amendments lowering the price of the units. The offering price does not prohibit sponsors from selling units at a lower price. If anything, brokers make concessions to prospective purchasers when they show the unit to the prospective purchaser or to entice purchasers who thought they were already priced out.

Second, if the price is lowered officially, appraisers will pick up on it, especially after the first closings in the building at the lower price (units in the same building make the best comps). This will definitely affect purchasers who have already signed contracts for higher priced units that close after those with lower priced units.

Third, although less expensive than units at 70 wash and main st., the units are not lofts and the value will be significantly affected by the development and sale of J condo (similar stock). The units are certainly good if you are used to living in a manhattan box or if you are an investor renting out the apartment and don’t really care (although the high maintenance is a little difficult to swallow).

The lofts at 70 washington and main st., will be less affected by the development at J condo, 57 front st. and 85 Adams, since those lofts are closer to BB park and further away from the York St. station (not a particularly inviting area, especially late at night being closer to the projects). In these times, my bet is that the lofts in 70 wash and main st. will retain their value, vs. Beacon which will have competition from another 200+ units coming on line at J condo and any other building a developer in the future wants to put up. Plus, no more true loft buildings are being created. So there really won't be anything equivalent additional competition than what was already built there back in the early 1900's.

As for the units at J Condo, Beacon or 57 Front? Will they will always face new competition whenever a developer wants to throw up a new building.

Do you prefer loft space or a Manhattan box?

30.

Why would Beacon Tower be less desirable than 70 Washington? What makes the "loft" aspect so great? Both buildings have ceiling heights of app. 11 feet, while the units in 70 washington are loaded up with windowless interior rooms and noisy windowed rooms. It all comes down to price per square foot. I think it would be easier to sell a a 1 bedroom at 600K than a larger 1 BR at 1.2M.

31.

Obviously a purchaser at Beacon Tower. That building in no way can compete with the three Walentas buildings of 1 main, 30 main and 70 Wash. From the charm of the old buildings to the finishings and materials used. Hurry up and buy in one of these buildings before the prices begin to rise again after this lull.

32.

#29 & 31...are you out of your mind? 70 Wash is noisy and expensive for a one bed with office. There are over 200 units on those creaky warehouse floors. Beacon is a boutique building with 3-4 units per floor. You would rather have a floor full of neighbors? Be honest, both buildings have their pluses and their minuses. To compare Beacon to Jay Street is comparing apples to oranges.

33.

Obviously a larger apartment is more desirable than a smaller one. But million dollar studios and million plus 1 bedrooms are going to be harder to sell than so called "Manhattan boxes."

34.

Of course, $600k one bedrooms will be easier to sell than $1mil+ one-bedrooms, even though the $1mil+ one-bedrooms have more square footage. There are simply more people who can afford $600k one bedrooms.

However, when you're talking about real estate investment (which is what you're doing when you buy any home, even the one you live in), you're looking at risk and what units have a likelihood of appreciating or losing value in the future. In the market today, purchasers should also be concerned on what will likely retain value. This is compounded that at the moment, purchasers have more leverage than they have had in the past 5 years. Thus you have to really see what purchasers would prefer.

The more scarce a unit is, the more likely, the higher price it commands. Simple econ.

The fact is that the lofts at 1 Main, 30 Main and 70 Wash are only going to become more scarce and thus command higher prices per square foot. No one is putting up true loft buildings/warehouses anymore.

While manhattan boxes like J Condo and 85 Adams will become more common and diluted, due to future development in the area, not just in the next 1 or 2 years, but for the next 5-10 years. Now that J condo and 85 Adams zoning have been approved, there really is no reason to deny additional and future approval for similar stock. Whereas no one's going to put up a early 20th century warehouse due to the cost.

Let’s be realistic, its much much more likely that future stock will be similar or equal the stock found at J Condo and 85 Adams, rather than the Main St. and Wash St. lofts.

Here’s an excerpt from a local Brooklyn paper with respect to what people think about J Condo. I would say the same goes for 85 Adams. It also has some interesting history about the J Condo and now-defunct Lightbridges site.

“Hillis described the new J Condo building as less than eye-catching.
”It’s a generic brick box, and it’s unfortunate,” she said. “It cheapens the whole neighborhood, really.”

http://www.brooklynpapers.com/html/issues/_vol28/28_35/28_35nets2.html

35.

VDH - do us all a favor and stop speaking on real estate - you have no damn clue.
a wise developer enlists a professional consultant, of which there are few, that is in turn the marketing agent and broker in the end. that's how they get paid.
from conception the one you call "broker" is involved and has a direct impact on the design, layout, and finish among a thousand other things.
the "listing broker" you speak of, in new development may simply be an onsite hourly paid agent (more likely in larger developments like JCondo and 85 Adams) but in smaller projects may very well be the consultant/broker.
Look at the inventory out there with a quality professional. All is not roses regardless of size etc. Consumers should seek out a good experienced broker - and if new development is your game then a broker with legitimate experience in with new development. This is not the bobble head calling herself VP project manager of tdg. This failed wannabe/rental broker is a prime example of being promoted to your level of incompetence. in case you haven't yet been tramatized by this blonde with terrets, heed the warning-beware of her and someone please rescue the little dog.

36.

Hey Anonymous,

You have a point with 70 Wash being a loft and therefore scarce and demanding a higher price... but what you fail to be able to see is that 85 Adams affords a 2 bedroom for $700 and up, while Wash is much, much pricier. So, affordability needs to be taken into consideration. Second, DUMBO has very clear borders and is a small community, therefore not too many more new developments can go up. So, while there is excess inventory now, 5-10 years from now, an 85 Adams will be scarce. Again, if you're going to compare- make it apples to apples.

37.

I fail to see what qualifies a 1-bedroom apt. in 70 Washington as a "loft" that is somehow different from a "manhattan box." If by "loft" you mean 1-bedroom apartment with a slightly larger than average living room and higher than average ceilings, then I suppose those 70 Washington apartments are lofts. But by that measure, so are thousands and thousands of apartments in Manhattan. I recognize that in New York real estate, descriptions like "loft" have meanings that could charitably be described as flexible, but just calling something a loft doesn't make it so, and it certainly doesn't make it worth hundreds of thuosands of dollars more than a "box." But, hey, if you want to pay extra because a developper or real estate broker calls your apartment a loft, more power to you.

38.

And it that case, 85 Adams is a LOFT as well, as the ceilings are 11 ft.

39.

High ceilings and larger than average rooms do not make a loft. High ceilings do help though.

The difference between lofts and manhattan boxes is more than high ceilings and larger rooms. Rather its the whole character and feel of the building. The lobbies, common elements and the units themselves. Its something that gives you pride in your community and building.

Yes, there are many many manhattan boxes in manhattan. And yes, there are more and more manhattan boxes in Brooklyn now. And yes, there will be more and more manhattan boxes in Brooklyn and DUMBO in years to come.

That is the problem with buying in 85 Adams and J Condo. There will more and more manhattan box competition in the 1-10 years. However, there will only be a set number of loft buildings in DUMBO. As such, which properties are more likely to appreciate or retain their value vs. decrease in value due to future supply?

For example: If everything were equal including distance from work would you rather live in apartments like those found in Battery Park City or the condos coming up in the Woolworth Building. Hands down, the Woolworth Building.

Now, I know your next argument is going to be "Oooo, the condos in landmark buildings are SOOO EXPENSIVE.", which I'm sure they will be.

However, if you look at price/sq. ft. or monthly carrying costs, the prices may be similar.

If you look at 70 Wash and compare it to 85 Adams, the difference is not a lot at the moment. Assuming $700/month payment for each $100,000 borrowed and for ease of math, 100% financed and that taxes are the same.

Lets take units without a view.

85 Adams, 13C, 779 sq. ft. = $540,000 = $3,780 mortgage + $495 cc = $4,275/month
70 Wash, 5F. 710 sq. ft. = $580,000 = $4,060 mortgage + $242 cc = $4,302/month

Monthly carrying costs are about the same, a difference of $27/month.
You have 69 sq. ft. less at 70 Wash.

Also, you have to be prepared for the maintenance to basically double within 3 years. 85 Adams would be close to $990 and 70 Wash would be close to $484. Everyone pays dearly for amenities. That’s the way it is.

Which unit would be more likely to retain their value or depreciate. Which apartments are more similar to J Condo - 85 Adams or 70 Wash? Which apartments are more similar to the future manhattan box developments in DUMBO - 85 Adams or 70 Wash?

So if I took that into account, I would buy 70 Wash first. Also, project that at least 200+ manhattan boxes are going up at J Condo and probably another 200+ manhattan boxes within the next 3 years.

Try and do the math on the more established buildings in DUMBO: 1 Main and 30 Main.

These differences are what make one place different than another, despite the fact that they may have the same sq. footage, or be located in a similar area.

I guess it would be more evident to the disciminating buyer.

If someone wants to buy a manhattan box and that is all that they can afford, well the conversation stops there. I guess it’s the answer to affordable housing at that point.

But if you can/want to buy into a community/building that is unique and has character then you’re going to buy in a landmark building.

40.

Just adding in my two cents as I am obsessed with RE as musch as anyone else on this board is. I think 70 Washington is premium product (FYI, it's ok to call condos product). I love the construction. Some people complain the windows allow too much noise. I don't know. The ugly lobby bugs me. But the work appears to be high quality (perhaps Sweeney building was Two Trees' best work).

All that said, I think you can compare SOME condos at Beacon to SOME condos at 70 Washington (or Jcondo). Beacon's B and C lines are almost exactly the same floorplan as the F line at 70 Washington (and as the other post pointed out, both have 11 foot ceilings). Beacon's A nd D lines look very similar to one of the layouts at Jcondo.

So, looking at B/C at Beacon versus F at 70 Washington, I think the discount at Beacon is compelling (on the same floor, you save around $130,000). But if price were no object, I'd have to go with 70 Washington.

41.

there is only one "$700,000 2br" at Beacon - it's directly at train level, and thus has very few windows. I was there recently and it's not a pleasant unit.

42.

13C at Beacon Tower is actually much more comparable to 11E at 70 Washington (rather than 5F). So thats 540K at Beacon vs. 720K at 70 Washington. Theres no way that the so called "loft factor" can justify a 180K (33%) premium.

43.

13C at Beacon Tower is actually much more comparable to 11E at 70 Washington (rather than 5F). The square footage, floor, and views are about the same. So thats 540K at Beacon vs. 720K at 70 Washington. Theres no way that the so called "loft factor" can justify a 180K (33%) premium.

44.

The more I read Curbed, the more i realize this blog is a mouthpiece for brokers and developers. Please cancel my subscription.....

45.

And please don't drag Melissa and Millie into it while you're at it. If you're not directly involved with the project, you have no idea what you are writing about.

46.

#39- you still can't get past your short sighted view of DUMBO. Yes, many "manhattan boxes" are coming to the neighborhood over the next 2 years... but come 5 years, they will be scarce. So, loft or no loft... both properties will be valuable.

47.

#46

Be realistic. Do you really think that, if prices stay at a similar level, there won't be any additional development in the next 1-10 years?

You're joking right?

If you buy in 85 Adams and J Condo you better wish and pray that there will be no additional development in the next 1-10 years. I guess that's your bet and your risk.

Most likely, all new buildings (those constructed from ground up) will be manhattan boxes. Manhattan boxes will not be scarce (just like the way it is in Manhattan now).That's what I foresee.

To each his own. We'll see who's right in the next few years.

48.

Ok, No. 39, so here's what makes a "loft" according to you:

"The difference between lofts and manhattan boxes is more than high ceilings and larger rooms. Rather its the whole character and feel of the building. The lobbies, common elements and the units themselves. Its something that gives you pride in your community and building."

So, in essence, you've defined away any objective meaning of "loft", and the only remaining definition is, in essence, an apartment that appeals to you, No. 39, personally. And that, I suppose, is your right. But why all the smugness? I've seen the 70 Wash. "lofts" and they seem pretty cookie-cutter to me, with bourgeois sensibilities that will, in 5 or ten years time, feel as dated as the 1970's era "Manhattan boxes" that you seem to take such glee in denigrating. But, hey, that's just me. I live in an apartment that would not, by any rational definition, be characterized as a loft, yet I stil feel "pride in my community and building", as you put it. But then I don't live in Dumbo, so what can I possibly know. Seriously, dude, if you want to know why some people have such a visceral reaction to Dumbo, just re-read your posts in this thread.

49.

#47... why can't you grasp the fact that DUMBO has very distinct borders and only so much new construction can go up in the neighborhood. It's not like the Upper West side... it's small. Plus, their are zoning laws that will to some degree keep things in check. Your rant on "additional development" is not logical. Do your homework before you waste everyone's time...

50.

#49

OK, then what do you define as the boundaries of DUMBO?

And who's gonna protect the neighborhood against developers creating another 400+ manhattan box units?

You?

With respect to the new development, and future new development, everyone knows its true.

51.

#49

OK, then what do you define as the boundaries of DUMBO?

And who's gonna protect the neighborhood and enforce the zoning laws against developers creating another 400+ manhattan box units?

You?

As you can see these zoning laws that you evoke have done a great job so far in prohibiting building in DUMBO with J Condo and Beacon ready to go.

:)

52.

DUMBO is the neighborhood between the Manhattan and the Brooklyn Bridge, and cut off by the BQE and the river. SMALL AREA. Even J Condo is not really in DUMBO, it's technically Vinegar hill. So... do your research and figure out how many buildings can actually be converted into residential new development in that confined area. Many of the buildings are landmark and will not be able to be torn down. There is also a huge community presence in the area [exemplified by all the postings on curbed] and the people do have a say as to what can get built. And then their is zoning. The reason you are seeing a growth spurt right now, is because the area is getting hot and the time is right for developers to build on the remaining residential land. Please tell me this makes sense to you...?

53.

#52 - So what you're saying is that 85 Adams will not have competition from other new buildings nearby (such as J Condo) because those buildings (like J Condo) are technically in Vinegar Hill.

I'll better inform you.

J Condo is 3 blocks away from 85 Adams.

Do you think the price reductions at 85 Adams are not influenced by 200+ units going up at J Condo/Vinegar Hill?

New construction will be going up in both DUMBO and Vinegar Hill. That new construction will affect 85 Adams and J Condo, and to a lesser extent the lofts in DUMBO proper. That new construction will drag down or slow the appreciation of future and resale prices at 85 Adams and J Condo, because most of the new construction will be the same as 85 Adams and J Condo (that is manhattan boxes).

P.S. Don't tell Corcoran that J Condo is in Vinegar Hill because their marketing it as living in DUMBO.

http://corcoran.com/property/nd/index.asp?p=2&BDD=Y

54.

You are speaking the obvious. Of course the real estate market will slow down when new inventory comes in... of course 85 Adams is effected by J Condo... but man, are you shortsighted. In 10 years, you don't think the apts in J Condo and the couple of other possible buildings in DUMBO/Vinegar hill will be filled up and at a premium? Look back 10 years in the meatpacking or another distinct neighborhood, and tell me again that these "manhattan boxes" will not be a good investment...

55.

I understand what you are saying.

I agree with you that manhattan boxes are a real estate investment.

I agree with you that real estate investment generally increase in value over the long term.

I agree with you that units in 85 Adams and J Condo will probably appreciate over time.

You probably agree with me that the lofts in DUMBO will probably appreciate over time.

But "good investment" is relative. Between, manhattan boxes and lofts, I think the lofts are a better investment, despite the increased cost.

Right now, is a good time (for at least the next month) for buyers since there is a lot of inventory in DUMBO with J Condo and 85 Adams on line and the Spring buying season has not yet hit. Those willing to brave the bad weather may find deals from motivated sellers.

However the initial reason for the posts was to point out that IMO, the lofts are a better investment than 85 Adams and J Condo because manhattan boxes more susceptible than the DUMBO lofts to additional inventory coming on line in the near future and beyond. For 85 Adams and J Condo, they may not have enough flavor/character/history to attract new buyers from the next new development.

56.

OK, you are entitled to your opinion, and i can respect that. Personally, if I was going to buy in any, I would have bought in Beacon when I could have gotten a 2 bedroom in the $700's that didn't butt up against the bridge. Having that usable space is more valuable to me then a "loft" building. But both opinions are right.

57.

Perhaps the supply of lofts is more constrained than the supply of new construction and that may help protect values to a certain degree.

But, bottom line, the two are still just forms of housing and are substitutes, especially as well-constructed new units with high ceilings and premium finishes can approach the feel of a loft.

As a result, declining values of new construction will ultimately impact the values of existing lofts (negatively) as potential buyers make their own individual considerations of the premium they are willing to pay for a loft vs. new a heavily discounted new 'box'.

The values of lofts are not independent of the values of 'boxes'.

58.

I agree w/#57. And furthermore, I don't feel that "boxes" will be more heavily discounted just because there are more of them. There are a lot of other factors- whether the apt has outdoor space, views, high ceilings, noise, creaky warehouse floors, is a boutique building or a 300 apt building.... you get my point.