Shark Bites: Hindsight in Harlem

1.

I agree. Large, empty lots *plus* flexible height requirements. The possibility of lofty penthouses is what's turned seedy Noho into star development paradise.... I didn't buy in my neighborhood for value, I bought for comfort, and now overnight when I walk to either 6 subway stops from my seedy, friendly, freaky East Village building I cross paths with either Ian Schrager or the Scupture for Living. Not something I ever expected.

But I'll reconcile myself to it if the damn Whole Foods on Houston ever opens.

2.

>there were large wasteland of empty lots and abandoned shells
_

amusing commentary, believe me, to black folks like me, you sound like the voice of a white pioneer and reporting to the homefront as if it's nearly become civilized. you barely creeps= above 110th street then assume you have a sense and feel for harlem.

today there is no shortage of empty lots and abandoned shells, hundreds and hundreds of them. unlike what you suggest, it is not a thing of the past. as i recall in '97 i bid on a shell on that row on a slight hill (bradhurst & 145th). i bid $110K, lost out to someone who bid $117K.

getting a true shell in harlem today can be done for $500K (and less). you just gotta know how. Hell, you can get Bstones in move-in condition still for $325-$350 ppsf no problem, all over the palce. An example? 413 W 145th is available now at $288 ppsf for example ($1.15M)
http://www.elliman.com/Listing.aspx?ListingID=722331

Rely on the ususual channels and suspects, the vast real estate industrial complex, and you'll have an impression the industry wants you to have, that a shell cost $1M today. It's not true, but they'll say it all day. Move in Brownstones like the one I just illustrated are all over Harlem for $1M and even less.

I kind of chuckle how you white folks just don't have the hook up. LOL. I'm looking at a second Harlem property, a shell for less than $250K.

3.

>there were large wasteland of empty lots and abandoned shells
_

amusing commentary, believe me, to black folks like me, you sound like the voice of a white pioneer and reporting to the homefront as if it's nearly become civilized. you barely creeps= above 110th street then assume you have a sense and feel for harlem.

today there is no shortage of empty lots and abandoned shells, hundreds and hundreds of them. unlike what you suggest, it is not a thing of the past. as i recall in '97 i bid on a shell on that row on a slight hill (bradhurst & 145th). i bid $110K, lost out to someone who bid $117K.

getting a true shell in harlem today can be done for $500K (and less). you just gotta know how. Hell, you can get Bstones in move-in condition still for $325-$350 ppsf no problem, all over the palce. An example? 413 W 145th is available now at $288 ppsf for example ($1.15M)
http://www.elliman.com/Listing.aspx?ListingID=722331

Rely on the ususual channels and suspects, the vast real estate industrial complex, and you'll have an impression the industry wants you to have, that a shell cost $1M today. It's not true, but they'll say it all day. Move in Brownstones like the one I just illustrated are all over Harlem for $1M and even less.

I kind of chuckle how you white folks just don't have the hook up. LOL. I'm looking at a second Harlem property, a shell for less than $250K.

4.

I'd never buy in Harlem. If one wants their apartment to retain value, Harlem apartments will fall the quickest in any sort of market softening.

5.

Pays2Be, your street smarts would be more impressive if you hadn't double posted like a newbie.

6.

Even if Harlem is going through a huge renaissance, I'd never want to live up there -- too far from everything. Who wants that kind of commute? I'd rather live in Brooklyn if that's the case.

7.

Dear Mr. Pays2Be,

I'll bet you make less than 100k a year.

You're all talk. I'm a real estate investor with an in-house real estate broker who knows Harlem inside and out. Those prices you're talking are blatant lies. Only an complete fool would sell a building for a fraction of it's worth.

You might be able to con your grampy out of his house, but that's about it.

Good luck in you hustling,

Little T. Rump

8.

"too far from everything"

Do tell - what is "everything"?
Downtown?
That's not everything.

9.

yes it is. downtown is the shizzz biz, baby.

10.

It's everything if you like Downtown or work downtown. I believe he was just stating a preference. Why is everyone above 14th Street or not in Manhattan so quick to take offense?

11.

Not taking offense. Just asking a question.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is: I live on 135th. I like downtown. It takes me 20-25 minutes, same as it did when I lived in Brooklyn (love ya, F train).
I love Harlem. And for me, there is more to life than downtown...Shizz or no shizz.

12.

Why do you assume that people who live downtown never travel uptown for anything? Even if one prefers Lower Manhattan that doesn't mean they think that there's nothing else to enjoy elsewhere.

I'd be very happy if more B&T people spent their weekends up in Harlem or other uptown neighborhoods. But for some reason, they don't.

13.

re: elliman listing for 413 W 145th -- just how bad is the interior, if all they're willing to show is photos of the outside of the building? Plus, no floor plan supplied.

And there's blue sky to visible to one side -- is it a corner building, or next door to an empty lot that will get developed?

There's a reason this building is priced so low; we just don't know exactly what the reason is.

14.

I wasn't making any assumptions. I was asking a question. Seems like the original assumption was that Harlem is "too far from everything." So I wanted to know what anon meant by that.

15.

poster #13 - easy - there's probably a massacre in that brownstone! a bloody and atrocious crime scene....

16.

413 W. 145th is only 19 feet wide and next tm a vacant lot. The advertisement states it's for developers -- so it needs to be renovated.

This building is very expensive on a post-renovation square foot sales bases -- assuming the market for condos in Harlem is still around when you're finished with the work in a year.

17.

Uptown ruler - Harlem is horrible. With all the new developments there, believe me it is still SCARY after midnite. The deli's are shady with the windowed cashiers. Did i mention about the Conway? If there's a conway, then your neighborhood is screwed. Yes you are simply FUCKED with a Conway. Of course there won't be a Prada, LV, Diesel, Scoop, Coach, Lacoste, Swiss Army, Gucci, Starbucks, Equinox, NYSC, Barnes and Nobles, Whole Foods, TJ's or even an OLD NAVY there. About the the commute there were TWO rats running on the platform of the 116 train station. Yes it is an isolated incident and what do i expect from new york, but that is simply gross!

18.

Does anyone EVER voluntarily go above, say, the 80's?

Nope.

Count me out.

19.

East Williamsburg at the Morgan Avenue L Train stop fits the bill perfectly but the zoning is all M1.

20.

Svet is right. Across the street from the Conway on 116th Street is a Mosque the blares prayers throughout the neighbood with mounted speakers. No problem with Muslims, but must the speakers be mounted to infringe on the neighborhood? 116th Street is not America.

21.

my advice to you, Svetlana - STAY AWAY!
If you think the telltale signs of a great neighborhood are stores that pimp fashion to suckers like you - aka Prada, LV, Diesel, Scoop, Coach, Lacoste, Swiss Army, Gucci - how can I top that?

I'll give you props for B&N and Whole Foods. I would like those uptown. Of course, we do have a wonderful Fairway.

And rats? on a subway platform? In NYC? Are you fucking kidding me?
Spend five minutes at the 14th Street F Station.
Or half the stations in the system, for that matter...Geez.

Myopia rules. Harlem isn't screwed, baby. You are.

22.

Personally, I'm glad y'all don't venture above the 80s. Keeps the streets uncrowded and free of vacuous chicks in Uggs complaining about how there's no Barnes and Noble.

23.

I really like Harlem just the way it is, problems and all, but change it must with all these luxury condos going up

24.

Sorry, Pays2BeBlack&InTheKnow, that brownstone is NOT in move-in condition. Did you read the copy? -- it said it needs LOTS of TLC, brokerspeak for uninhabitable. Even so, it does sound like a real find for someone able and willing to put a big chunk of change into the renovation. I'm scared, however, by their emphasis on developers -- do they mean someone coming in to tear down the building? Or maybe make floor through condos (less bad). And I think they could be profitable, actually.

And let's talk about rats -- like the ones I see nightly all over the LES -- more than I've ever seen anywhere else in NYC, due to the combination of new construction, crumbling rental buildings, garbage from trendy and non-trendy restaurants, and just general filth.

But they're everywhere all over Manhattan -- I saw a rat on the 96th St 6 platform last week - he was at the uptown end of the station, we were all huddled as far away as possible.

And all you bloody and awful crime scene afficionados, what do Dorian's Red Hand and The Falls have in common (apart from being favored by the types of screaming kiddies refernced in another post on this site recently)? Hmm, young ingenues both died violent deaths after visiting these establishments (one at the hands of Robert Chambers, the other by ?), which are both owned by the same people...

25.

I'm with Pays2be. if one focuses in a particular area and is known as an investor that delivers; Deals come. I specialize in Bed Stuy and still come across good deals. (Brownstones in the 350k to 450k range) There are certainly few and far between but they are there for those deeply entrenched.

Last year I was in contract for a 4 family home in Bushwick for $100k. The seller lived out of state and the building was being run as drug den. She obviously was not up for the challenge, so she was willing to let it go for $100k plus I had to pay 60K in back taxes,water and sewer charges.

Svetlana, you really don't have a clue. You don't have to go to 116th to see rats in NYC. And are all the stores that you mention what makes NYC great? besides,There is not a single neighborhood in NY that claim every single one those stores; so why should Harlem.

You my dear, are corny label whore

26.

Yes, #25, those deals may well exist, but they are NOT in move-in condition. Pays2Be was seriously exaggerating, unless he considers anything with a roof to be in move in condition...

And I'll wager that former drug den you got for $100K last year would go for double that now...even with the drug den still intact.

27.

And I understand the reverence for Prada, Vuitton, et al, but B&N? Do these types actually ever read? Well, actually I guess Buns & Nipples is a good bookstore for those who don't read -- they sell fashion magazines too, and Starbucks coffee.

28.

Babs, It was in the 1300 Block of Bushwick ave. All the 3 and 4 family bricks go for 500K to 650K It appraised for 400k when I bought it. It did need immense work.

I think what I got from what Pays2be was saying is that if your a person of color and in the know; you can get deals that outsiders won't get (literally and figuratively speaking)

I wasn't scared of a drug den. I'm from Brooklyn and grew up in the mid 80's when crack was king.
The funny thing is that drug dealers what to sell drugs and make money not shoot people. I never had to call the cops. I simply told them(FIRMLY) they could not ply their trade in MY building. I can't tell you how many drug houses I've closed down over there years. Not only did I do a community service I was also able to get great real estate buys in the process.

29.

Yes, #8
"too far from everything" -- do you really think that people are going out on the town in Harlem, as though it has a hip nightlife? Heck no. You would have to leave the neighborhood for that sort of thing, and then you might get shot when you return home at 1 am.

I could see gentrification in Harlem for families, but not young singletons.

30.

However, the example he cited is being sold by Elliman and isn't that much of a deal and is offered to anyone, regardless of color. The only color anyone cares about anymore is GREEN.

So, yes, someone who takes the time to learn a neighborhood and its people will do better than an ignorant "outsider" (as well he/she should -- that's the payoff for doing your homework and having some vision).

And bravo to you, #28, for your successes -- and may they continue.

31.

#29 you clearly know nothing about Harlem. How do you think Harlem became world famous.

It and places like it provide the globe with much of the slang, style, swagger you digest and pay big money for.

32.

Sigh. . .this thread is making me nostalgic for the Dumbo postings of "only losers live in Brooklyn." Yet again, the usual suspects claiming that "nobody" would live in the neighborhood just because they themselves choose not to (and thank God for that, btw).

On a more relevant note, I find it interesting that everyone is lumping together all of Harlem in this thread, when it's quite a large area and there are noticeable differences between East Harlem, Strivers Row, Morningside Heights, etc. These areas are all gentrifying at different paces and for different reasons (city-sponsored developments along Madison, yuppies getting landmark-quality brownstones on Strivers Row, huge investments by Columbia for Morningside).

There's many differences in terms of convenience to transportation as well. Northern points benefit from express trains, while those in the 'teens (like the map above) are relatively convenient via cab from Midtown, but, particularly on the more eastern blocks, can be a schlep to the subway. For people who crave downtown access many parts of Brooklyn may be more convenient, but if you work in Midtown and have lots of friends and family on the UWS or UES, Harlem is certainly convenient enough.

Bottom line: I know it's too much to ask, but could we have a real discussion of the pros, cons and changes in Harlem within this thread?

33.

There is a sector that has a vested interest to support, propel, and forward the notion as "Harlem" being "hot". LOL. The real estate industral complex and nothing more.
155-157 west 126th. Elliman was fishing for $3.75M, I see they're now down to $3.05M. The industry is fishing for, hoping for, and reliant on "the bigger fool" theory. That's damn near 20% price slashing right there for crissakes.

You can't explain, justify or legitimize these initial asking prices in any other context than the industry hoping the bigger fool buys into the hype. No fool in sight?...bring the price closer to earth and slash it nearly 20%. If it was priced right at $3.75M, it's a steal at $3.05M. Any takers? LOL.

This one template should be placed on most of these properties in Harlem. The RE professionals dont't want to own up or explain how and why we see nearly 20% price slashing as I have documented/illustated. They will go to the ends of the earth to scream their perception is right and buyers should not believe their lying eyes....

34.

I would agree that there is some serious hyperbole going on in Harlem's real estate market.
Even the locals are guilty. Griffin Realty is marketing a building on 135th, between Adam Clayton Powell and Frederick Douglass.
www.themarshallcondos.com
10 condos. Mediocre to poor quality finishes. Part-time super. No other amenities to speak of, unless you consider a gas FP and W/D hookups as absolute living essentials.

A sample listing - 1129 sq. ft for...drum roll.....$638,000! A paltry $565 per square foot.

It's clear that everyone's testing the market in Harlem. I think many of these apartments are worth maybe $425/sq. ft., at the high end.

Harlem is rising in value, yes. But it cannot command such steep prices until it gets some better public schools. The tail is currently trying to wag the dog.

35.

"What I didn't realize is that the big developers need uninterrupted, clear space. They can't plow money into a block full of run-down brownstones. Now when I hear about the South Bronx, Long Island City, Bushwick, and all of the other "next new things," I always ask myself: is there room for the big developers to move in and really change things?"

That's the reason every "next new thing" is an area of vast vacant lots strewn with rubble (Red Hook, South Bronx). But guess what? You are not a developer so, no deal for you! Meanwhile the city is still full of stable neighborhoods which have seen troubled days in the past and have great housing stock. Guess what? No deal for the developers! That's why Corcoran, et al, never mention these areas...and where are they? Follow Pays2Be's lead. Follow your nose.

36.

You WANT big developers moving in and "really" changing things? New York has enough big devolpers running amuck and ruining what little charm is left. And no, I'm not saying that rough and tumble run down neighborhoods equal charm, but neighborhoods of variety, where all kinds of people actually live and work, and where history still holds great presence...that is charm; that is what New York ought to be, and once was. Big developers only know one thing and only build for one thing: money, money, and more money. The only people they make neighborhoods better for is fellow speculators.

37.

Me thinks that the many naysayers are the main ones trying to scare others off so they can greedily claim all the great deals past 96th Street for themselves. LOL! Sorry guys, onto your game. Too late for the Harlem gold rush so what's the next hot part of town? SoBro perhaps?

38.

Funny thing about Mr. "Pays2BeBlack&InTheKnow" is that his hot hot tip for Harlem is to use the Elliman website. Hah hah hah. Secret ethnic knowledge it is, to have found such a resource. Perhaps some day white people too will learn secret handshake and be allowed in.

39.

Forgot to say, 413 West 415 that Black&InKnow likes is a shell; safe estimate is $150 per square foot to make it nice. Resulting cost is $438 per square foot, which is OK but not great bargain, and for six months construction or more you can not live there, take in tenants to support mortgage, and you have to pay rent or mortgage on current home while work is being done so it turns out expensive.

Also not sure but I think if finance the $150 per square foot, interest is not deductible, during construction anyway.

But Black&InKnow will reveal his financial secrets to us I am sure. My guess #1 secret? Corcoran website! Oh why did poor white people not figure it out without help from savvy homeboy?

40.

Can you imagine what would happen to Harlem real estate if an incident like what happend to that woman on the lower east side happend in Harlem? If one 27 yr old Long Island raised, Ivy educated JAP were to be victimized like that on her way home to here Harlem Condo, it would be "Central Park Jogger - Laci Peterson - Aruba girl" non-stop on the news, in the headlines, and the real estate would suffer big time.

41.

Harlem is definitely hyped. Yes there are no condos building up, but it is all speculation that people will buy those damn places. Harlem is a volatile market and the real estate brokers are hyping it as a future Harlem Renaissance bullshit.

If I were to choose from brooklyn or harlem, ill go for brooklyn. Harlem is just dirty. The ONLY reason for educated NYers living in Harlem is that they go to Columbia University or Sophie Davis. That's about it.

42.

oops typo! i actually meant a lot of condos building up

43.

I don't see how anyone can say Harlem is bad. Williamsburg is bad. The L TRAIN DOESN'T WORK HALF THE TIME.

I actually like Lower west harlem. The area is nice and is really picking up. If you are looking for a rental for under 2k, 2 bedrooms with doorman and rent stablized, you can find it in lower harlem.

I have lived in NYC all of my life - upper west side, chelsea, harlem and brooklyn. I have to say that the Upper West Side and Lower Harlem are the best. I HAVE FRIENDS IN SOHO WHO DON'T HAVE INTERCOMS IN THEIR BUILDIINGS. EWWW SOHO, EAST VILLAGE APARTMENTS ARE DIRTY.

44.

I think folks can be happy in any neighborhood. I just think from a financial perspective, buying in Harlem isn't a great bet. The entry fee may be lower, but so will the returns. And if a downturn occurs, it will be more amplified in Harlem. Look at post 9-11; downtown rebounded. Do you really think such a thing would have occurred had a plane dropped into Harlem?

45.

All of you 'down' on Harlem have it incredibly wrong. There have been several articles about which areas will suffer from a downturn. Guess what? - East Village does worse than Harlem. And Brooklyn - forget it. Why? Transportation. I live a block from a two express trains. D and A. It takes me 15 minutes to get to midtown. 20-25 minutes to 14th street. Takes me 20 minutes to WALK to a train from Alphabet City.

Public schools? They suck everywhere in NYC - not just Harlem. Everywhere.

Want to talk about rats? Has anyone walked in the east village lately. And here is a stat for you - there were more murders in the East Village in 2005 than in all of Harlem! (A much bigger area in size)

People move to Harlem for the convenience, the architecture - anyone been to Hamilton Hieghts or Striver's Row know what i am talking about - and the sense of community. Yes, there is a lot of work to be done in Harlem, but there is also already hip culture, history and great music scene - something your sterile areas of Brooklyn, Queens, or the Lower East Side still lack.

It is one of the best kept secrets in the city, which fortunately with the skewed perceptions on boards like these, will keep it a secret a little longer.

46.

Svetlana, you are disgusting. How do you live with yourself? It's people like you who are ruining this city.

47.

Anonymous #46. I was in Harlem and simply stating the facts. The truth hurts, but honey if you can't handle it then you can go screw yourself.

Ok with the rats, when i was walking out of Marquee last weekend, i saw a rat, but for a short instance it just reminded me of the pest problem in Harlem subway stations too!

Hip culture? Ok that place is literally DEAD and creepy after midnite. I dare you to walk from 114-124 on Malcolm.

Do i see harlem as a place with HUGE appreciating value? Definitely not.

Also, the only reason why you see rich people living up there is either they go to Columbia, sophie, juliard OR running fanatics who LOVEs Central Park NORTH. I rest my case.

People who want to move to New York City DO NOT venture out looking for Harlem. It is not their first choice. But when it comes down to the money, and if they can afford it, they will go for harlem.

It's just very self serving to say harlem is going through a renaissance when YOU LIVE THERE or you are BROKER trying to sell the damned fuckville.

Until there's a barnes and nobles, a dean and deluca, an LV, a diesel, a Whole Foods, trendy restaurants and not a dunkin donuts, VIM, job lot, conway or your local bodega or even beautiful people strolling around and celebrating huge circuit period parties, then there is no reason to dwell and rot in Harlem.

Harlem? I rather live in Brooklyn.

48.

Svetlana-
Yeah - Brooklyn! I recommend Bushwick for you.

49.

If it takes you 20 minutes to walk to a subway in the East Village, you must be pretty slow.

I guess travel times are important when you live in Harlem as you've got more of a need to travel for things. For me, I need only walk a block or two for good restaurants, shopping, library, parks I can visit in the evening. But if you don't mind the hour travel time (round trip) tacked onto a night out, cool.

In these Harlem travel time calculations there always seems to be this misperception that there's a subway train waiting personally for you as soon as you arrive. I guess for me I like a neighborhood where I can walk to things rather than having to hop on a subway to go to *other* neighborhoods.

Heard the Popeye's and McDonalds in Harlems are first rate, though!

50.

Bing Cherry - For fast food, I prefer tastidelight or a green tea frappuccino!

I hope everyone who mentions about how long it takes you to take the subway to work should ALSO factor in the wait time for the trains.

Bushwick is ok, nothing to ponder over

51.

#44 From a financial perspective, I remember when union sq was not desirable, look at it now, bet you wished you bought in then

Harlem may take a downturn, hey, nothing goes up forever, but it has a greater upside than downtown.

Even if it takes a downturn, you will still be living in a studio while us harlemites have a real home for the same

52.

Svetlana, I actually pity you. You're view of this city is so pathetic and so warped it is beyond my comprehension. The vast majority of people who live here don't measure a neighborhoods worth by how many chain stores or luxary goods retailers it has. PLEASE move back to the midwest or wherever the rock is that you crawled from. This City could really do without people like you. Some day I am confident that you will grow up and mature into something less monstrous.

53.

Harlem and Union Square aren't analogous, either historically or currently.

Even when Union Square was less desireable, you can be damned sure that Harlem was wayyyyy less desireable.

Even after probably the hottest real estate market ever seen in this city, Harlem still remains spotty and a bargain (by your assessment). Ever wonder why it remains a bargain in these times? Ever wonder why that might be a bad thing for you as an investor -- or even just as a homeowner?

54.

I'm a harsh critic of Harlem. I own a home here. The neighborhood is changing but major amenities are still lacking. Despite the hype about the entertainment scene and jazz, there is still very little night life here. There is not a single non-jazz) club geared for the young, professional crowd. I'm here for the history, the architectecture and the fact that homes are more reasonably priced here. Svetlana is probably a moron, but her comment is true that the walk on Lenox Avenue can be forboding at night. Even for me as a black man.

55.

I'm a harsh critic of Harlem. I own a home here. The neighborhood is changing but major amenities are still lacking. Despite the hype about the entertainment scene and jazz, there is still very little night life here. There is not a single non-jazz) club geared for the young, professional crowd. I'm here for the history, the architectecture and the fact that homes are more reasonably priced here. Svetlana is probably a moron, but her comment is true that the walk on Lenox Avenue can be forboding at night. Even for me as a black man.

56.

I am stating the truth and truth hurts though. Anyway maybe i should start a club/lounge in harlem which features the following weekly schedule

Monday - Happy Hour from 3pm-10pm Reggaeton
Tuesday - Fat Tuesdays $6 Margaritas Old school Hip/hop
Wednesday - Freestyle Rap Karaoke
Thursday - Happy Hour and Live Rap/Floetry
Friday - Ladies Night - Period Circuit Parties
Saturday - Hip/hop Reggae
Sunday - Salsa/Jazz

Maybe that should gentrify Harlem....although i don't think people like the lohans, tara reids, tobey macguires, camerons, justins would trek to harlem unless for some good fried chicken, candied yams or collard greens.

back to union square or harlem. You can't compare apples to oranges. Union square will always be HIP with all the NYU'ers. So hot! Please note I am a hoya :)

57.

And you call yourself a black man who is scared of walking down the streets of Harlem? Grow some balls or move to the suburbs where you truly belong. Don't forget your gardening tools you wimp!

58.

#55 -- That's a nice, measured assessment of things. No neighborhood is perfect. I don't consider the East Village to be underground or artsy -- I'm neither of those things either. I'm just an average guy who likes the neighborhood and that its German heritage mirrors my own ancestry. I find the architecture around here beautiful, though that's changing just like New York always does. I don't feel like I need to act like a booster of the neighborhood other than to say that it's the right place for me.

I like making a sometimes visit to Harlem, but only for the buildings or the occassional cultural thing (the Studio Museum or to see a play or dance). I find it offers very little to me as far as nightlife or restaurants.

We all make tradeoffs for how we live. For myself, I'm willing to trade space for being in a vibrant neighborhood with lots of things to do. For others, having more space may outweigh other things that are lacking.

59.

Amen to you, 52!

Svetlana, I've been following your garbage in several discussions. First, your gay-bashing in the "Gramurray" topic, now this. What's up with that? You bored? Have no job? I doubt anyone - ANYONE - who reads Curbed will ever take your posts seriously. So spares us all the time. Take your "wisdom" elsewhere -- how about a shopping blog, like Daily Candy?

Cheers, all.

60.

spare us all, not spares :-)

61.

Anyone who posts this board does not have a job or they are in conference calls. What do the rest of you do?

62.

Thanks! I work in one of the top advertising agencies. :)

Yes I live in Manhattan and No I don't live in Harlem or Grammurray....oh wait is it called EAST CHELSEA NOW?

63.

You know, in the six months since I moved to Harlem, I've had a black man get in my face exactly once, and it happened not here but on Christopher Street.

I live in Mount Morris, and I love it here. Certainly, if your life begins after 8pm, you're not going to like it so much, and it would be nice if there were more options than just Settepani for a decent weekend lunch, but I have a humungous prewar 1br for a rent that would get me maybe a closet anywhere south of 96th, with a park view out the window, 25 minutes from 14th Street.

Incidentally, there is an Old Navy in Harlem, on West 125th between Manhattan and Fred. Not that this proves anything except that Svetlana's an ignorant troll.

64.

That Old Navy Comment was a joke. Lighten up you old farts-

65.

#20, you're kidding, right? While I admit my opinion might change if I lived next door (anyone who lives in the Renaissance want to comment?) I like the calls to prayer from the mosque. They sound very much like America to me.

Besides, on Lenox between 120th and 124th, every second building is a church. I think you're safe from Islam Cooties.

66.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone live on the 116th and malcolm Renaissance building? One of my friend bought it for a little over 100K and the maintenance is over 1100 for a one bedroom.

Is this correct? Please confirm.

67.

Don't live there, but can confirm the hefty CC's on those apartments. I've seen listings, which explains why your friend bought for cheap. 2BR maintenance almost two grand?
Resale must be difficult.
No need for a flip-tax when you're shelling out that much per month.

What's the story?
Is this place poorly managed?
Sky-high underlying mortgage or RE taxes?

68.

# 67,

you are probably seeing $1800+ maintenance on 2bdrs in the subsidized buildings -- for example, 130 Lenox -- the reason why the maintenance is so huge is because the people who got in the building when it first opened -- 2001 -- got in there through a lottery. They paid *nothing* for their places - like, $5,000 to $15,000 or so, depending on how large a place you got. In exchange, their maintenance was high, so management could continue repaying its mortgage (46 billion or something) on the land, construction, etc. But now, the first owners, who bought for nothing, are reselling. They are trying to fetch $300K for a two-bedroom (quite a deal, given the space) BUT whoever shells out the money, has to continue paying the huge maint. On top of that all, there are income restrictions, you can't make more than 103K this year to qualify for any apt with maintenance less than $1800, you can't make more than 157K overall.

Hope that helps.

69.

#68

Are you a broker? How did you know about 130 Lenox? My friend got the one bedroom when the previous owner sold it.

No wonder it is so dirt cheap. However, the maintenance is $1100 and it is in Harlem....how can anyone sell a one bedroom with such high maintenance fees?

Here's my take on normal maintenance fees

Studios - 450-700
1 bedroom - 600-900
2 bedroom - 900-1200

70.

No, I'm not a broker - I was seriously considering buying an apartment in the building. But the high maintenance put me off. It really makes no sense to be throwing away all that money each month, just because some lucky guys bought the place initially for nothing. And it really bugged me that someone bought that place for 15K five years ago and now asks 320K. Ridiculous!!!
Oh, oh, and because there are income restrictions, it really can't appreciate all that much. It only appreciates in line with the median salary increase in New York!

71.

NYTIMES/
PERSPECTIVES: At Lenox and 116th, Co-ops and Stores Are Rising
By ALAN S. OSER
Published: August 8, 1999

The apartments are expected to sell for about $160 a square foot when they go on the market in about six months, once the offering plan is approved by the New York State Attorney General's office. At that price, a 900-square-foot, two-bedroom apartment with one bath would sell for about $140,000, with a down payment requirement of 5 percent, or $7,000. The monthly maintenance charge would be about $1,165 , covering operating expenses, the underlying mortgage and property taxes, which are abated in the early years. A three-bedroom, two-bath apartment, with about 1,200 square feet, would sell for $192,000, with a monthly maintenance of $1,550.

Also:
The residential component's first mortgage is a 35-year, 7.15 percent loan of $31.6 million from the city's Housing Development Corporation. To make carrying costs more affordable to buyers, the co-op will also have two city loans totaling $13.2 million, one of $6.9 million at 1 percent interest from the Housing Development Coporation and another of $6.3 million at zero interest from the Department of Housing Preservation and Development.

72.

I’m reading a lot of you down town folks, find many reasons your glad you don’t live in Harlem.

I remember hearing these similar misgivings about Union Sq.,

Now you are paying a small fortune for tiny little living spaces just to be near what is now considered cool (Union Sq.)

History repeats itself.

I predict many of the folks that don’t like Harlem now will be clamoring to pay way too much for overpriced studios in Harlem in the future.

Hopefully that future is a long way off and you stay downtown.

If you want to follow the herd, good luck.

73.

Erasmus, this is a 1999 article. Believe me, I've researched the project through and through. Here's one Village Voice article I found helpful:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0304,little,41338,5.html

and here's the NY Times back in 2001, when people actually started moving in:
The first tenants will begin moving next week into the Renaissance, a 240-apartment co-op in central Harlem that was developed with an unusual financing method intended to make the apartments affordable to people with moderate incomes.

Buyers for the one- to three-bedroom apartments were chosen by lottery from 3,500 applicants. The apartments, with 675 to 1,100 square feet of space, are on the upper floors of the residential-commercial project on the east side of Lenox Avenue from 116th to 117th Streets.

There are 60,000 square feet of retail space on the ground floor of the $60 million building, which rises to 11 stories on the avenue and steps down to 8 stories and 6 stories on the side streets.

It was developed, using public and private funds, by Suna/Levine Industries of Douglaston, N.Y., which is headed by Stuart Match Suna and Jeffrey E. Levine. The Malcolm Shabazz Mosque, across 117th Street from the Renaissance, is the apartment building's nonprofit sponsor.

Since sales began 10 months ago, 225 units have been sold to people with annual incomes ranging from $31,000 to $147,750, per apartment. Apartment buyers must put up $4,533 to $15,393 in cash, depending on the size and location of the apartments. Buyers then owe a proportionate share of the building's underlying mortgage, ranging from $113,000 to $381,831. Buyers pay the balance of the purchase price as part of their monthly fees, which include maintenance, and range from $794 to $2,696. Interest paid on the mortgage is tax-deductible.

74.

well not that I would buy that place at Harlem. BUT if it was 15K before I would have bought it. Although since i am over the 150 mark i am out of the market. oh well :(

75.

"although i don't think people like the lohans, tara reids, tobey macguires, camerons, justins would trek to harlem"

Well, there you have a reason right there to move to Harlem! If you can guarantee that I won't have to worry about these anorexic, drunken, drug-addicted, third rate "actors" (and those who admire them) spewing their bile all over the streets my hood, I'm in!

Unfortunately, I'm sure that they will wind up there eventually, unless they drink or drug themselves to death first.

76.

OK in 1999, a 3 bedroom would go for 192000? how much would it be around now?

77.

Regarding the high maintenance issue, you'll see similar problems in LIC with non-income restricted buildings like City lights. The feeling was that people wouldn't be willing to pay that much to live in what was, at the time, a desolate area. So initial prices were incredibly low but maintenance was high. It doesn't make that much of a difference if you're only staying somewhere a few years, but if you plan to stay for 15-20 years you'll accumulate much less equity than with an apartment with lower maintenance.

As for the "Harlem will never be worth anything" arguments, please. I moved into the city around 15 years ago, which is hardly an eternity. I remember going to a party in what was then called Alphabet City; several cab drivers wouldn't even take us there, Tompkins Square Park was ablaze with trash fires set by the homeless, and the people we visited said one neighbor had been broken into so many times, the last thieves took the food out of her refrigerator. Three big guys volunteered to walk us back to Union Square for a cab, and the entire time people were calling out of cars to see if we were hookers or offering to sell us drugs.

As you can see on Curbed, a walkup in that area can now try to get over $1M. Drunk NYU students are probably the biggest threat. My favorite sign of the gentrification? The day one of those plexiglass-box liquor stores shut down, then reopened as an Urban Outfitters.

Meanwhile, if you're going to argue that Harlem is filled with housing projects and thus is a poor candidate for redevelopment, take a look at Chelsea and the Meatpacking District. Chic clubs, hotels like the Maritime and celebrity condo projects are in many cases right across the street from projects. But 15 years ago, I also would never have considered living there, or Hells' Kitchen, or whatever you call the area near FIT due to the threat of street crime and lack of services. Meanwhile, aren't parts of Dumbo and the Brooklyn Navy Yard supposed to be on top of toxic waste?

Ultimately, never underestimate the NY real estate market. If the market continues to maintain its frenzied pace, Harlem will indeed seem like one of the better choices within anything close to an affordable price range (even on this board, I don't hear too many people claiming SoBro or Bed-Stuy are dramatically better in safety/amenities, and they're certainly not closer).

On the other hand, if the bubble bursts, plenty of people will get screwed, not just those in Harlem or, for that matter, those in risky areas. During the 90s tons of people were stuck in apartments in great neighborhoods that they couldn't sell for anything close to what they paid for them.

78.

Speaking of Mosques, checked out the new Related building at 251 E 96 St (One Carnegie Hill). beautfiul apartments, great finishes (W/D in EVERY apartment -- even the alcove studios), floor to ceiling windows, walk-in closets, pool, health club, etc.

However, I can hear the out-of-town kiddies already ("Is this a safe area? Are those PROJECTS that I can see from my window? What is that building on the corner? A MOSQUE? Like for Arabs? Oh, my God, get me out of here!"). Idiots! That's OK, though, there will be more deals for intelligent people.

The funniest part is, the mosque OWNS the land on which the building was built and part of the deal with related was that an Islamic school will be housed in the building. Of course, they don't tell you this in the leasing office (and they're not very forthcoming in the sales office either).

79.

Includes "light, winged bedrooms."
This one will fly away....soon!

80.

Just because some neighborhoods have gone up does not mean that every one will go up. Especially Harlem, which has not seen the benefits that other less desireable neighborhoods have seen during the recent run up. I think Harlem, for whatever reasons, call it racism or just bad rep, creates a negative image in a lot of buyers' minds. Plus, it's the only neighborhood in Manhattan where you can go around and routinely see boarded up or shell buildings. It seems to me that if it were such a great place, it would have been taken over by investors, no?

81.

Excuse my dyslexia -- it's 215 E 96 St.

82.

#79 (cont)

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=739689

83.

But Harlem will always have negative stigma to it. Also a lot of buyers right now are around my age, 24-28 and they won't know the crimes in alphabet city BUT harlem.....

Again, you can't compare Chelsea (gay mecca) or meat packing district to harlem. They both lie around midtown and close proximity to a lot of things and entertainment. Harlem? That is way too out there. If gay men can drive up prices in chelsea, i doubt it would drive anything harlem because they are probably scared shitless to move there anyways.

Can we stop blaming NYU students for the cause of real estate issues?

Babsy i have to agree with you on this one. You won't see any thin models hanging around in harlem for sure.

And while i went on my way to visit harlem, i was thinking of either manolos or uggz but then quickly changed my mind for a pair of sneakers so i can run away from trouble (just in case!) :)

84.

Renaissance?. That place has major problems and was very poorly constructed. Between their internal flip tax issues to prevent a mass exodus and the construction, it's a problemed place.

That construction taking place down 116th near the church? Well that crane and its pounding in the ground (drilling) is shaking the Bldg. Right now there is a notice on their community board by a concerned tenant noting the possible structural damange due to the shaking of the bldg.

Inside apartments take a look at the electrical fixtures, rarely are they straight and even, rarely will you see even lines where walls and floors meet with the base (edge/framing), the contractor did a poor job on installing hardwood floors which resulted in litigation/settlement, the walls are paper thin. You can hear every single faucet, toilet, footstep, washing machine above and adjacent to you. You can hear conversations of neighbors in adjacent bathrooms with common walls. Walk down the halls, look at the doors of apts. You will see cracks going from the door corridor up to the ceiling of just about every single apartment in this near new bldg? WTF? (Remember the shaking).

Oh, then you get to go outside where the bus crowd uses the entry way for shelter. Some of the top apartments with their huge terraces are cool, very cool. Take a close look at their financials and you'll head for the hills.

85.

Bing, my thoughts exactly! Harlem still harbors a negative stigma to buyers.

And as for One Carnegie Hall, it is great place to live if you want to take your kids tot he Dayton School (sp? or wrong school? you know what I am talking about)

86.

A 3 br in Harlem = Studio in Chelsea/Gramercy/Murray Hill

an added incentive: a safe haven from the spoiled college kids after 8pm

nuff said

87.

Svetlana, people like you who go around spouting what you're spouting are the reason Harlem has whatever negative stigma it may have.

But I'm not complaining. The longer Harlem remains feared and stigmatised as the place where the Big Bad Black People live, the better chance I'll have of picking up for a pittance one of the gorgeous brownstones down the block that would give the readers of Brownstoner a terminal hard-on if it was in Park Slope. If schlepping down to the mid-80s for a decent bagel and a bookstore is the price I have to pay, I'll pay it gladly.

88.

Svetlana, I am 27 years old, make 150K+ a year and I'm buying in Harlem. Yes, Harlem. (Oh, yes, and I'm white and straight.) Everyone has a reason to buy in Harlem, or stay away from it. Your generalizations only alienate people.

89.

Uh... to the label lady... I do believe I saw an H&M and a MAC store on 125th when I there the other day... Prada might not make it, but there certainly are affordable label stores making their way to Harlem.

Svet, you know you sound rather Russian... I wouldn't hang out in Brighton Beach for fear of the Russian mafia. There's crap happens everywhere, you know.

90.

Harlem may harbor a negative stigma to some buyers, but to others, it's a plus. There are many people who admire the architecture of the mansions on Strivers' Row, or the spacious pre-war elegance of buildings like 935 St Nicholas Ave (where Duke Ellington lived), or the historic French-colonial style carriage houses on Sylvan Terrace, and who also appreciate the sense of history that surrounds you here, as well as the advantages of living in a real neighborhood, with real neighbors, not transient post-adolescents who will eventually move back to the 'burbs to spawn.

No need for your running shoes, Svetlana, no-one's going to be chasing you here (why would they?), and even if they were, do you actually think you could outrun anyone (especially if you don't know the neighborhood)? Although anyone who would even consider wearing Uggs deserves to be run out of town. So year before last and ugly even then.

91.

#86, so what should a couple with 2-3 kids do, move into a studio in chelsea or a 3 bdrm in Harlem?

92.

LOL, Uggs really ARE the uggliest concoction to be named shoes. Ever. Babs, you the man (or woman). :-)

93.

Thanks, and more proof (as if it were needed) that money can't buy taste.

94.

everyone's taking the bait from svetlana.
This dog will never be curbed.

95.

OK, since #87 brought the bagel into this debate...
Harlem's "bad stigma" is so last year. These sweeping generalizations about Harlem's fear factor are simply short-sighted.

96.

T-Ann - I kinda knew that comment about the Russian Mafia was about to come. But Brighton Beach is still a safer place than Harlem.

poster #88, are you buying a 2 or 3 br? Or maybe a Penthouse? Have you thought of getting into 130 Lenox?

Babsy- I know a lot of people dont like uggz, but you need to have a certain body type (toned thighs and hams - lots of pilates and stair climbing would help!) and right jeans (D&G, diesels) or mini skirt to pull it off :)

97.

Of course the comment would come, Svetlana, because my generalization of Brighton Beach is about an inane as your generalization of Harlem.

I think what more I was trying to get at is that you are very shortsighted. If you don't want to move to Harlem, don't, but what kind of pony to you have in this race to trash an entire neighborhood so vehemently, especially a place where you don't want to live? This, I don't understand one bit.

98.

Actually, I was responding primarily to Bing's earlier comment about Harlem having a negative image, but couldn't resist a jab at Svet; I sincerely doubt she is a real person, but just in case...

And I'd love to see her try to buy a condo at One Carnegie HALL, but then maybe there's a Dayton School over there somewhere...

99.

"but what kind of pony to you have in this race to trash an entire neighborhood so vehemently"

ANSWER: a svetland pony

100.

sorry babs, luckily i didn't mention one carnegie mellon, then i am screwed!

babs are you are broker? i just wish there's a way i can contact the brokers at curbed.com

101.

Yes, Svetlana, I am an agent, but I don't use this forum to gain business -- it's a relief to be able to express my personal opinion from time to time, as opposed to "the customer is always right!"

102.

And no matter what your body type, Uggs are just plain ugly! Why ugly up a nice leg by adding those caveman-looking atrocities at the bottom? Heels are always a nicer finish (even with pants) than flats, and if you're going to wear flats, why not some Tod's or something?

103.

babs- sorry to go off topic, but i think uggz are really cute! my mom hates uggz and thinks they should be sold at payless....urrggh that store reminds me of starr jones

anyway if maintenance are THAT HIGH, WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL BUYING THOSE APARTMENTS? It just doesn't make sense on an equity standpoint

104.

Hmmm. Why is it that topics on Harlem generate such passionate discussions. Recent sales of rental apartments indicate major changes for Harlem in the not to distant future. One benefit of this is that it very likely will make Harlem Manhattan's most racially diverse. This, I think, will make Harlem a highly desireable place to live. Once this happens, Svetlana, stores like Prada will follow. I hope by then your purported G-Town education will start manifesting itself.

So, regardless of where the realestate market goes in Harlem the neighborhood will continue to change. Thousands of apartments in City programs (namely, Mitchell-Lama) will be coming up in the next 2-5 years. Rent will rise. Unfortunately some longtime tenants will be displaced.
This will be the effect of market forces.
Let's hope I'm right.

105.

#77 - you make a huge mistake in comparing Harlem to the meatpacking district and chelsea. The problem with Harlem is how far uptown it is -- no matter how you slice it, no matter how much it has been cleaned up and feels "neighborhoody" it will never rival the spirited nightlife of downtown, which will not fade. And I sure as heck would not pay $40 for a cab on a Saturday to night to get home. Proximity is the problem.

106.

Harlem Ogler, Prada stores WILL NEVER spawn in harlem, unless you are talking about the knock offs that you buy :)

Anyway, with all the jokes aside and on a serious note Harlem Ogler, did you buy a place in Harlem? If so how much and sq footage? Do tell :)

107.

They're buying those high-common charge condos because they have low asking prices and it's what they can afford. No it doesn't make sense from an equity perspective, but not everyone has the luxury of a nice downpayment. It makes more sense than renting at least.

108.

Post 105 - That's what i said! :) Kudos to you!

but here's the thing babs, the maintenance is like an entire mortgage! Well at least it is tax-deductible....

109.

poster 105 - check out post 83

110.

Svetlana:
We bought 3 bedroom in 100+year-old prewar building near the great park for less than a studio apartment below 96 street. Our friends who live in shoeboxes downtown are always in awe when the visit us. Best investment of my life.

111.

Svets you fucking tool. You can't say jack if you don't live in Harlem. So glad we don't see label whores like you around my community. How would you feel if I start making fun of your Russian brigton beach community?

112.

Not even, Svetlana -- common charges on condos are not deductible (at all). All that's deductible is real estate taxes (paid separately), which aren't deductible either if you're in the AMT (which these income-restricted buyers aren't for the moment). And even on co-ops the maintenance is only partially tax deductible (depends on the size and interest rate of the building's underlying mortgage).

And unfortunately many people think that buying certain labels will get them into a certain social segment -- very often these are people who can least afford them! So for every rich bitch label whore out there, unfortunately, there are hundreds of women (and men; not only women buy designer duds) who think that if they dress like those people they'll get into that social class too. It takes a pretty evolved consciousness (and a strong stomach) to realize that clothes do NOT make the (wo)man.

And different groups in society worship different labels - which is worse, a pair of Uggs that cost maybe 30% of that buyer's disposable income for the month (after rent/mortgage, bills, savings, utilities, student loans, etc.) or a pair of Timberlands that cost 80% of that buyer's disposable income?

The consumer society makes label whores of us all.

113.

Svetlana, Bing, keep following the herd and you will remain living in overpriced shoeboxes

114.

To clarify things here about the Harlem Renaissance -- it is a co-op, which means that a good portion of the maintenance is tax deductible, but this is because of the high underlying mortgage on the building, which could predict financial instability. Common charges on condos are not deductible.

115.

A cab ride to harlem is only 20 bucks. 40 dollars goes to Queens and far out Brooklyn!

116.

I live in a crappy midtown neighborhood (rental) and took the train up to Harlem last week (116th stop on the 2/3) to do some exploration and see if it might be a good place to buy my first home. I did my best to wander and cover a lot of ground, generally moving north and west (my distaste for UES, Yorkville and all things north of 23rd on the eastside keeping me west of 5th ave). The walk was much like this message board: totally schizophrenic and extremely difficult to generalize about. Granted, “Harlem” includes a very large geographic area (by Manhattan standards), but in the space of a few blocks and after only 5 minutes after getting off the train I saw a drug deal go down (nothing very exotic, just some cracked-out lady freaking out at her dealer about the quantity or quality of the product he was peddling) 50 feet from a condo building boasting beautifully renovated homes at prices that don’t seem too far shy of what I would pay for a similar place near Port Authority or the Lincoln Tunnel. I never felt “unsafe” during my afternoon self-guided tour, but as an early 20’s gay white NYC transplant from the Midwest who would need to commute to midtown for his soul-sucking investment banking job (quitting in a few months though, praise be to Allah), I was never really comfortable enough to picture myself happily residing in any part of Harlem (proper) that I saw. I could just be selling out to my affinity for all the great bars, restaurants, stores and parks I have easy access to from midtown, but please don’t lump me in with Svetlana (poster-child for the plague of shallow consumerism). Harlem real estate isn’t a risk I’m ready to take at the moment, but I wish I had more friends that lived in/near the neighborhood to get me to go up there more often. Change is definitely taking place and I’ll probably kick myself in a couple years for not snapping up a nice home there…

117.

I've been reading this thread with great interest and thought that I would relay my own story for perspective. My wife and I have lived (and owned) at the corner of 5th&16th for eight years. For some time now, I've debated with myself our prospects for the future given our eventual desire to expand our family without moving to the suburbs. We considered Brooklyn but settled on Harlem for a number of reasons, some not entirely rational. Both have fine brownstone stock, which was the focus of our search (we need space). In Brooklyn, however, we saw rows upon rows of brownstones without the wide avenues found in Harlem, which we see as conducive to attracting the amenities (e.g., dry cleaners, restaurants, clothing stores) that we hope will one day line FDB, ACP, and Lenox. This also gives Harlem more of an urban feel, which appealed to us. Once we stepped onto a side street, however, the urban feel was replaced by a neighborhood feel.

We also found Harlem to be surprisingly friendly. Occassionally, we felt a bit of resentment, but this was the exception rather than the rule. Usually, people seemed much more open than in our neighborhood five miles south. We have yet to feel unsafe.

Mass transit was also a pleasant surprise. I won't attempt to estimate the travel time to various other locations but subway trains were more frequent than I imagined and travel times were shorter than I anticipated. Brooklyn is closer to my office in Lower Manhattan, but Harlem is closer (measured by travel time) to just about everywhere else on the Island.

Finally, we just didn't want to move to an outer borough. As irrational as this may be, I believe that there is real value to remaining in Manhattan. (We get to keep our 212 number without switching to internet phone service.)

Harlem may not be right for everyone. If I were 26 again rather than 34, I would probably buy downtown. For my current and future needs, however, Harlem seems to be the perfect fit.

We're renovating a 19ft. former SRO on 120th St. between 5th&Lenox.

118.

Union Sq. I used to work right down the steet from you and I love your block. I think you bought in a great area. Hard to believe that 4 years ago that neighborhood was burnt out.

Yeah, Mount Morris Park will never be Riverside, but you can walk to 125th and the Uptown Juice Bar (my fav!), the organic grocery next door, Settipani is next door and Sisters and Harlem Tea Room are on Madison.

I only had resentment directed me by one person who was obviously mentally disturbed, and when I brought my daughter to work with me a couple of times, she got nothing but affection.

I miss working there and getting to walk around and see all the changes. Thank god the place is still Ugg-free.

Plus, contrary to other commentators on this board, I, a total white girl, felt fine walking at night up Lenox. Now Madison was another story--way too empty at night for my tastes.

119.

Steen, the changes are truly astounding. I didn't realize that "The Ruins" occupying 1-9 W. Mt. Morris Park where in such awful shape as recently as 2001 until I explored the Harlem archives on this site. The magnificent buildings on Lenox from 119-123 are starting to see renovation as well. It seems that each week there's another building targeted for improvement.

We considered Striver's Row and Hamilton Heights (specifically the Convent/Hamilton Terrance area), but settled on the Mt. Morris Park area.

120.

HARLEM, HARLEM IS THE BEST!
LAY THIS STUPID THREAD TO REST!
IF YOU POST ANOTHER THING
A CURSE UPON YOUR DINGALING!

121.

To #115 (cabbie)
I wish you'd be my cabbie every weekend night, then, if you're going to be undercharging like that. I live uptown and it definitely would cost more than $20 to go from, say, the LES to West Harlem. Plus, who wants to spend a half hour in a cab just to get home? Not I.

122.

I currently live on E. 102nd in a luxury bldg and I must say, Harlem really isn't that bad. Im actually now looking into buying a new condo at 110th E.Harlem.

http://warburgrealty.com/buyers-prop-indiv.php?numb=472699

If you look at the place, the biggest complaint would be lack of closets. But I've came up with a plan to overcome that. Anyways, It seems most of the postings are referenceing above 116th. I'm curious to know what you all think of Harlem below 116th. I'm fairly new to the area so any feedback would be helpful specially on this condo Im looking into.

123.

A large swath of East Harlem below 116 is comprised entirely of projects--112-115 streets between 5th and 1st avenues, or at least it appears so.

124.

Union Sq. - thank you for your comments. Believe it or not, I am just now looking at the contract for a place on 2002 Fifth (this is on 124th and Fifth) -- a new condop building that will be completed in July. I still have my doubts and questions about the area - we went there a few times at night and during the day, it was fine, but still, we thought, it's Harlem, what if it isn't safe? Your comment somehow made me feel better about the biggest decision of my life so far that I'm just about to make. I will be glad to hear anything else you can tell me about the area. Is there a way to contact you? (I know you'd probably feel iffy about posting your email here -- I myself do :-))

Seattlite, I saw the building you have in mind yesterday. It does look nice, and there is a police precinct close by (always good to have the police nearby :-)) One of my major concerns with the building is that the apartments are too small. One bedrooms barely go above 500 sq.f. and 2 bedrooms are only 770 (or something to that end). I just couldn't picture fitting two bedrooms and TWO FULL baths in that space! But if you've been there, do tell more details about it. Thanks!

125.

To #121 (ahem)

Sweety, you are so wrong. I live well into Harlem and my cabbie always charges less than 23 pesos. And it don't take longer than 15 minutes from the LES. There is a little thing called the FDR, after all.

And let me just say to you pathetic 20-somethings: Puhleeze learn some history! You talk as if Brooklyn has always been king, but I easily remember a time when my non-Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights friends said "Brooklyn" with an emabarrased smile. You think everything in this city is written in stone but don't realize that EVERYthing (including YOU) is in flux.

Sorry little things.

126.

I'm a twenty something college student and I used to live literally one block from Time Warner. When I moved to NY three years ago, that area wasn't nearly as pricey. Time Warner wasn't done and you could rent a decent apartment on Columbus or Amsterdam for a reasonable price. That has all flown out the window, especially with all the condos and services that recently went up in the area.

So when I moved, I was apprehensive about being shown apartments in Morningside Heights. After all, Morningside Heights is a name white people and latinos created to distinguish their home from the rest of Harlem.

I must say, regardless of what they are calling this neighborhood these days (I've heard it referred to as Morningside, SoHa, Manhattan Valley), I absolutely love it. I guess the area I am in is the southernmost part of Morningside and since I live right near Columbia, there are tons of services and restaurants. In fact, the building I live in hosts not one but two sushi restaurants (and an Italian restaurant is right nextdoor). The buildings here are just as nice as some if not nicer than buildings you see elsewhere on the UWS (especially on Claremont and between Broadway and Morningside Park. If I was going to buy, I would buy here because the change HERE is already something you can see. The rest of Harlem, I'm sorry, but unless you can see it, it's not happening. If you ask around Soho, there are a lot of people that got in there at JUST the right time. They bought or got into something rent stabilized that might now cost them double. But that doesn't mean they moved to Soho when it was a dumpy neighborhood.