South Williamsburg Getting a Little More Religion

1.

I'm ok with this.

2.

It looks like something McSam would build. Boy, it's ugly.

3.

that actually looks impressive, like a grand central for god.

4.

It looks nice. Almost as if Robert A.M. Stern is the architect.

5.

Ok, so let's get going with the anti-Semitic comments already. Hello?

6.

spiderpig, spiderpig, does whatever a spiderpig does....here comes the spiderpig.

7.

It is going to be a synagogue and a school. Nice job on the Hebrew.

8.

another tax evasion scheme

9.

Ooh! Street art!

*SPLASH!*

10.

Why can't more religious buildings be built with this level of quality? I don't know how people can meditate in some of the ugly churches/temples/mosques/whatever that exist. It looks great!

11.

Looks like most of their buildings in Midwood. They all look like bomb shelters.

12.

Fairly impressive design. Let's wait to see the end product.

http://mikeelliottsblog.wordpress.com

13.

#11 you fucking loser in life, bomb shelters have walls of windows? Go kill yourself.

14.

arent bomb shelters typically underground? I dont really see the resemblence.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozguy89/783109183/

15.

i have to say it's pretty nice-looking - it's got a nice parti and enough visual interest given the scale (which in and of itself isn't outrageous, though i'm not very familiar with the immediate urban context to fully support that assumption).

16.

It's just another big dumb box monstrosity--like walmart and home depot. I'd like mine with piggy fries please.

17.

whats with the spiderpig and piggy fries comment? have i been missing out on a slur against my people all these years?

18.

Nice building.

FREE PALESTINE, STOP OPPRESSING THE PALESTINIANS, AND RETURN TO PRE-1967 BORDERS (INCL. EAST JERUSALEM)!

19.

Way better than the average new building, at the very least.

20.

a home depot? i dont see the resemblence
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iceymoon/50687421/
No if you were to say Grand Central Terminal i could see some similarities.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/441220479/

21.

That building is going to be a synagogue/study hall

The words on the bottom translate to: House of Study

Hassidic Jews: 1

Hipsters: 0

22.

Sure it's big. It actually looks like the type of school or entertainment venue that was being put up a century ago. Looks really nice. It's got character. 2:18 says it looks like Walmart? I say 2:18 looks like a douchebag.

23.

I'll free my big dick and shove it down your throat #18. Shut the fuck-up, you know nothing about Middle East History. Half those fucking people are Jordanian to begin with- let them go back to Jordan where they're not wanted. The other half infiltrated Lebanon thanks to Arafat and his cronies, who decided that Palestine was a separate entity apart from Jordan, then basically fucked them over and pocketed their money so he could keep his whore wife in a villa in france.

Israel won that territory fair and square after they were attacked by every neighboring Arab Country in '67- so it's too fucking bad if you or anyone else doesn't like it. Why don't you go over there and free Palestine. Only a fucking douchebag would use this thread to write the shit you wrote. Drop dead.

24.

#23

you don't "win" land by winning a war.
it just doesn't work like that

land-grabbing neo-nazi's

25.

If this is the best design we could get, I guess I am okay with it.

26.

And you don't win respect by sending children out to blow themselves up, and others around them to pieces.

27.

No. 23: That attitude is precisely the racist, Apartheid attitude that "your people" are using to oppress the Palestinians.

28.

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" -- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." -- Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956

29.

PS: No. 26: Don't forget that while Palestine was a British Mandate, the J.ews, including the terrorist organization, Irgun run by Menachim Begin, killed many innocent people with a bombing campain. Remember the bombing at the King David Hotel that killed 91 people and was orchestrated by the pig that was to become Prime Minister Begin?

30.

The Palestinian Claim to Jerusalem

The claim to make Jerusalem (or at least its eastern part) capital of a Palestinian state is unfounded. Palestinian leaders often call for Jerusalem (or "Arab Jerusalem") to be "restored" to the Palestinian people, but there is no legal basis for this claim.

First, not only has Jerusalem never been the capital of an Arab state, but there has never been any state of Palestine. When the Arabs first controlled the region in the Middle Ages, they established their capital in Ramle. Subsequent Arab and Mamluk empires chose to rule from Baghdad and Damascus. The Ottoman sultan resided in Constantinople, now Istanbul. More recently, the Jordanians -- who held the eastern part of the city from 1948 to 1967 -- designated Amman as their capital city.

Second, prior to 1948, Palestinian Arabs refused to accept any of the proposed solutions to the Arab-Jewish conflict. They would not consent to anything short of establishing Arab rule in all of the Palestine Mandate -- and expelling, or killing, all Jews living in that area. In an effort to achieve that objective, the Palestinian Arabs (and the surrounding Arab states) initiated a war against the newly proclaimed State of Israel, hoping to destroy the new country before it could establish itself.

Third, between 1948 and 1967, there were only isolated calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state in the "territories," with Jerusalem as its capital. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was established in 1964, three years before the outbreak of the Six-Day War, with the avowed aim of "liberating" that area of Mandatory Palestine which had become the State of Israel, as well as that which had become Jordan. At that time, the Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and eastern Jerusalem were Jordanian citizens -- and remain so today.

Fourth, only in 1967 -- once Israel had successfully defended itself against Arab aggression and reunited Jerusalem -- did the Palestinian Arabs begin to lay claim to Jerusalem as their political capital. What motivated them was primarily an inability to accept the fact that Israel had emerged victorious from a war which was intended to destroy it, and that Israel had also succeeded in establishing its rule over all of Jerusalem.

Thus, there is no legal basis for the "historical" Palestinian claim that Jerusalem was their capital. Moreover, although the Palestinians may have a strong emotional attachment to Jerusalem, it does not necessarily follow that Jerusalem -- over 70% of whose population is Jewish, and where the majority of the population in the eastern part of the city is also Jewish, should become the capital of any Palestinian political entity

31.

To understand the steadily widening Palestinian war against Israel, it is first necessary to understand the Palestinian concept of sacrifice. This idea plays a very substantial role in Palestinian policies in the much publicized war. And Palestinian terrorism is the optimal way in which sacrifice is expressed.

Anti-Israel terrorism, as a form of sacrificial Islamic behavior, serves among other things to protect the entire Palestinian community from its own violence. It spurs this community to choose victims outside itself; that is, Jewish victims. As in all traditional societies where sacrifice is practiced, the elements of dissension scattered throughout the community are drawn here to the persons of the sacrificed victims and thereby eliminated.

For Palestinians who will continue their war against Israel - and they number in the tens if not hundreds of thousands -terrorism will be a means to restore harmony to their fractionated community and to reinforce the Palestinian social fabric. This propitiatory function of sacrificial rites is widely known in the anthropology literature, but it is altogether unrecognized in the State of Israel - the state most endangered of all by terror/violence. In ritualistic societies most familiar to us, including those of the ancient Hebrews, the sacrificial victims are always animals.

But there have always been other societies in which human victims are substituted for those individuals who feel threatened. In Euripides' "Medea", the principle of human substitution of one victim for another appears most starkly and horribly. Because the true object of her hatred - her faithless husband Jason - is out of her reach, Medea substitutes her own children. Moreover, Medea prepares the death of her children exactly like a priest preparing for sacrifice. What is most important, Medea's sacrifice reveals the following overriding truth about violence, a truth that should be at the very top of the list for Israeli officials concerned about Arab terror: Violence will accumulate until it overflows its confines and floods the surrounding areas. The role of sacrifice/terror is nothing less than to stem this rising tide of indiscriminate substitution and redirect violence into "proper" channels.

But how do we know that Palestinian terrorists actually think of their own violence against Jews in this way? One answer is that they say so, day after day after day. There is no ambiguity in the Friday sermons; or on the PA (Palestine Authority), Hamas and Islamic Jihad websites. Here it is made absolutely clear that terror/violence against Jews is a religious obligation. It is assuredly nothing so trivial as a political/military tactic. On the contrary, for those Palestinians who would wield terror/violence against Israel, violence and the sacred are inseparable. For them, the correctness of terror/violence even depends upon its being performed in a spirit of submission, a spirit which marks all aspects of their religious life.

It is important to understand that for Palestinian terrorists, sacrificial violence against Israel has two categories of victims. One category, of course, is the "vile, infidel Jew." The other is the "glorious martyr" who kills the despised Jew (it is always the "Jew," never the Israeli) and who earns eternal glory by "dying for the sake of Allah." This "martyr" need not fear personal death in sacrificing himself as a suicide bomber. On the contrary, by choosing to "die" in this way he actually buys himself free, forever, from the penalty of dying. "Do not consider those who are slain in the cause of Allah, as dead," says the Koran. "They are living by their Lord."

"Strive for death, and you will receive life," believes the Palestinian terrorist who would sacrifice himself as well as the hated "jew plunderer." Significantly, a series of articles on Palestinian "martyrs" (the Shuhada) in AL-ISTIQLAL emphasizes their presumed difference from the Jews, whom they allege fear death and seek life at all costs. In essence, this is an unfounded polarity, as the overriding rationale of the terrorist "martyr" is to avoid death at all costs; to obtain a "seat in Paradise" and to be saved "from the torture of the grave." In principle, Israeli officials who would understand Arab terror against Israel, in part, as a form of religious worship might seek ways to disabuse intended "martyrs" of their particular brand of faith in immortality, but this would be far beyond the scope of operational possibility.

As Israel continues to project its own Western, rational, American model upon Palestinian thinking, "martyr" Samy Rahim's words speak volumes about the true nature of the terrorist adversary: "Every day on which the sun rises and no Jew is killed, nor any martyr has died, will be a day for which we will be punished by Allah." (AL-ISTIQLAL), August 20, 1999).

This punishment will arise because both obligatory aspects of sacrificial terror will have been neglected: The sacrifice of the Jew and the sacrifice of the "martyr." The two-sided nature of terror/sacrifice is also codified in the Charter of Hamas, which states clearly: "...the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise...."I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill."

Lest anyone believe that the more "moderate" Arafat feels differently, consider his recent remarks, in Gaza, to Palestinian "security" forces: "You will fight for Allah, and you will kill and be killed, and this is a solemn oath....Our blood is cheap compared with the cause which has brought us together, but shortly we will meet again in heaven....." Central to these remarks is the duality of sacrificial behavior; the fighters "will kill and be killed...." Victory for the Palestinian people will come when both the despised Jews and the Arab "martyrs" suffer death. But while death for the Jews will be final and unheroic, a confirmation of intrinsic Jewish limitations and unworthiness, death for the Palestinians will be only a temporary inconvenience on the way to eternal life. It is only by killing Jews and subsequently being killed by them that true freedom from death can be realized.

Yasir Arafat's appointed clergy, preaching on the Temple Mount on August 11, 2000, spoke as follows: "Palestinians spearhead Allah's war against the Jews. The dead shall not rise until the Palestinians shall kill all the Jews....All agreements with Israel are provisional." The Palestinian solution for "the Jews" is a Final Solution. Only as Israel begins to understand that this solution is rooted in the concept of sacrifice can it begin to take essential steps toward national survival.

32.

Why isn't anyone pointing out that if the "Palestinians" are the original inhabitants of the land, since they now claim to be the original "Canaanites", they cannot possibly be descendants of Avraham, ergo, not people of the Book, since the Canaanites were in the land before the time of Avraham. They can't have it both ways!! (Just a thought from me.)

33.

Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.

And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.

You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."

The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir's "racism." They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.

What they don't like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.

So, despite the fact that conventional wisdom has now proclaimed that there is such a thing as the Palestinian people, I'm going to raise those uncomfortable quotations made by Arafat and his henchmen when their public-relations guard was down.

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

That's pretty clear, isn't it? It's even more specific than Golda Meir's statement. It reaffirms what I have written on this subject. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993. It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.

In fact, on the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what he said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

No matter how many people convince themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves.

I've said it before and I will say it again, in the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.

Why now has it become such a critical priority?

The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.

Golda Meir was right. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.

Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It's not too late to say no to terrorism. It's not too late to say no to another Arab terror state. It's not too late to tell the truth about Palestine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Farah is founder, editor and CEO of WND and a nationally syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate. His latest book is "Stop The Presses: The Inside Story of the New Media Revolution." He also edits the online intelligence newsletter Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, in which he utilizes his sources developed over 30 years in the news business.

34.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

35.

If this is built by the Satmars, it should be noted they're vocally ANTI-Zionist.

I agree this building is very 19th Century. Whoever is complaining on this message thread is probably some out-of-town hipster-wannabe who moved to Williamsburg in the past five years so they can "keep it real". Meanwhile, the Hasidim have been there for decades. Just for your stupid comments, may you rot in a box-like hell designed by Karl Fischer or Robert Scarano.

36.

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!

1. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.

2. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.

3. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.

4. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian crude death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.

5. Before 1967, when Israel's rule began, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.

6. Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)

7. Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli rule.

8. Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.

9. This was not the only effect Israeli rule had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.

37.

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!

1. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.

2. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.

3. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.

4. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian crude death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.

5. Before 1967, when Israel's rule began, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.

6. Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)

7. Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli rule.

8. Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.

9. This was not the only effect Israeli rule had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.

38.

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."

Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President', Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders - "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden

39.

Would this situation have existed?

I can understand the sympathy towards the Palestinians . However, we must be aware of why this unpleasant and dangerous situation exists.

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN partition plan calling for the establishment of two states, one Arab and one Jewish, would this situation have existed?

Had the Arabs not attacked Israel in 1948 with the intent to annihilate her, would this situation have existed?

The Jordanians annexed the West Bank and the Egyptians occupied Gaza from 1948-1967. If the Palestinians would have established a state during this period, would this situation have existed?

Had the Arabs not created an atmosphere (boycotts, blockades, armed attacks, terrorism,etc) leading to the 1967 war , would this situation have existed?

Had the Palestinians accepted the Clinton/Barak peace plan including very difficult Israeli concessions, would this situation have existed?

Had the Palestinians not resorted to violence in the Fall of 2000, would this situation have existed?

If the Palestinians would not use children in their "front lines", shoot at Israelis using their civilian population as a shield,
support terrorism, teach hatred, would this situation have existed?

Violence seems to be the name of the game. Rather than compromise, even when the sides were so close to peace, the Palestinians revert to violence. In fact, when one studies most of the violent situations in the world (Middle East, Bosnia, Indonesia, India, Chechnia) Moslems are involved. The moderates must take action against the radicals, otherwise the world will fall victim to a difficult and unpleasant future

40.

Only in _ew York, the true West Bank, would there be such absurd support for the terrorist regime.

41.

holy copy and paste!

42.

Wednesday, July 18, 2007



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The Truth About "Palestine"
By Gerald A. Honigman
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 7, 2006

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice recently gave a speech in which she said something to the effect that there would be no greater cause than the birth of Palestine.
Horsefeathers...

While my own limited Arabic, Turkish, and so forth from my own doctoral studies' days has grown all too rusty over the decades, Condi better stick to her Russian expertise for sure. And relying on the Arabists who too often run the show at Foggy Bottom doesn't change this for the better either. Together, on this topic at least, they all behave as if they are deaf, dumb, and blind to what is happening on the real Planet Earth. The sad reality is that they do know better...yet don't hesitate to stick it to the Jews anyway. Recall that Condi's crew fought President Truman over the very rebirth of Israel in the first place. But as Truman himself also said, "the buck stops here." So President Bush must agree with what's going on.

Now think about Dr. Rice's statement long and hard...

Nothing could be more deserving or noble than the Arabs gaining their 22nd state, and second one in "Palestine" (Jordan having already emerged in 1922 on some 80% of the original April 25, 1920 Mandate)?

Really?

How about this for starters?

If the Arabs hadn't constantly demanded that only they be granted political rights in the region with the break up of the Ottoman Turkish Empire after World War I (which controlled much of the area for about five centuries)--at the expense of scores of millions of native non-Arabs, including one-half of Israel's Jews who were refugees from what Arabs claim as "purely Arab patrimony"-- they could have had that additional state they demand over a half century ago...and many other times ever since.

They rejected the '47 partition which would have given them roughly one half of the 20% of the territory left after Arabs had already been granted the lion's share with the creation of what would later be renamed Jordan. And they repeatedly rejected similar plans...including one under a liberal Democratic President Clinton's watch at Camp David and Taba not long ago which would have given them some 95% of the disputed territories and a $ 33 billion virtual slush fund to sweeten the pot. Ambassador Dennis Ross, another liberal Democrat, was on the spot and put to the lie current Arab excuses for why they rejected this.

The sad fact is that the reason that Condi's "most noble cause" has not yet materialized is that the Arabs still demand that their additional state be born to take the place of--not live peacefully side-by-side with--the sole, miniscule, resurrected State of the Jews.

The West's darling, Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas, ran on a platform for Israel's destruction--but by "more acceptable" means (though he's been quite willing to allow hundreds of rockets to rain down on Israel proper from Gaza--land now totally under Palestinian Arab control after Israel's withdrawal over a year ago--and then complains when the Jews finally are forced to move in to try to stop these attacks themselves). Abbas still insists that he's going to deluge Israel proper with millions of alleged Arab jihadi refugees (when I'm elected Pope). And he represents the "noble" (read as more dishonest) half of the Arab good cop/bad cop team Israel faces. At least Hamas doesn't hide its true, genocidal intentions.

Where is the nobility in a cause which sees justice only for itself?

I believe Condi also claimed to have seen polls proving that most Arabs just wanted a state prepared to live in peace with its Jewish neighbor.

Horsefeathers again.

I've seen many of the polls. And they all say the same thing.

Most Arabs openly state that if Israel was to withdraw from every inch of disputed territory, they would still support continuous terrorism against the Jew of the Nations anyway. Of course, in Arab minds, all of Israel is disputed territory.

So, why doesn't Condi & Co. acknowledge this? I asked the question...unfortunately knowing the answer. Please don't tell me that she and her Arabist buddies at State--and Dubya too, for that matter-- don't have access to Abbas's own websites, maps, insignias, textbooks,publications, etc. and so forth which show their proposed state taking the place of Israel--not coexisting with it.

So, Dr. Rice...do you want a truly noble cause to endorse?

How about a Roadmap for Kurdistan?

Unlike the Roadmap your attempting to force down the Jews' throats, the Kurds aren't out to deny anyone else their rights. And they were promised a state after World War I but got shafted largely by the collusion of British petroleum politics and Arab nationalism. Instead of partiton in the Mandate of Mesopotamia (as occurred in the Mandate of Palestine, first with the creation of today's Jordan and later offers to the Arabs as well), a purely Arab-controlled Iraq was born. And Kurds pre-dated the Arab conquest of that area by millennia.

While Arabs blow each other apart and will do so even more upon America's exit from Iraq (and I supported the overthrow of Adolph--er Saddam--Hussein), the one region where American values, stability, and such now exist is in the Kurdish north. You know, those folks, like the Jews, who also asked for a slice of justice in the age of nationalism and who have been butchered, gassed, subjugated, Arabized, and so forth to the tune of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, just by the Arabs alone over the past century...with similar goings on at the hands of Turks and Iranians as well, in response.

So, Dr. Rice, why is the cause of the birth of the Arabs' 22nd state, dedicated to the destruction of the Jew of the Nations (regardless of who is at the helm), "most noble" but the cause of thirty million truly stateless, used and abused (including by our own State Department) Kurds not even worth your mention?

Pardon me...

You did mention them, and when you did a while back at an earlier conference, you rudely shot down the question and demanded that the Kurds live amongst those have continuously murdered, subjugated, and forcibly Arabized them.

Why almost two dozen states for Arabs and none for Kurds?

And please don't bring up the Turks regarding this (and I'm a stong supporter of good, but realistic, ties with Ankara).

Let's put things into the broader perspective...

Israel has a population of roughly 6 million people, of whom about 20% are Arab. Among the latter are some very hostile elements, some even serving in Israel's Knesset. Israel’s territory is about 20,770 sq Km.

Turkey has a population of about 68 million people, of whom about 20% are Kurds. Turkey’s territory is about 780,580 sq Km.

About 38 Israels would fit into Turkey.

Despite Israel’s miniscule size, Condi & Co. have no problem demanding that Israel allow the creation of another Arab state, dedicated to its destruction (that "noble cause"), right in its own very backyard. Ignored are the open proclamations by even the so-called Arab "moderates" that any so-called "peace initiatives" are but hudnas (temporary ceasefires) and "Trojan Horses," steps along the way in the Arabs’ post-’67 destruction in phases strategy for Israel.

Now, how will the fifth of miniscule Israel’s population that is Arab react to this adjacent potential development?

Yet Condi and even Israel's alleged "best friend, Dubya, seem not to be worried about any murderous and destablizing effects when Jews are involved.

Those same folks who declare that Israel must grossly endanger itself so that yet another Arab state might be born (after all, over six million square miles of territory, mostly conquered and forcibly Arabized from native non-Arab peoples, is apparently not enough) insist that Kurds must remain forever stateless because of some potential problems their freedom might cause to a Turkey nearly forty times Israel’s size in territory and over eleven times its size in population...and with the same 80% to 20% mix of potential "headaches."

The reality is that the Kurds are not stupid and would not encourage Turkey's or America's wrath after gaining independence.

American bases would be welcome in Mesopotamian Kurdistan and could help to soothe both parties regarding these matters. Again, with Arabs blowing each other apart to the south, and Shi'a big brother Iran waiting in the wings for the creation of the Islamic Republic of Iraq, an American-supported Free Kurdistan becomes ever more attractive. An arrangement can also be worked out to share Kurdistan's oil wealth in the historically Kurdish Mosul and Kirkuk areas as well--including with the Turks, who lost out on the Mosul Question in 1925.

Let's turn the clock back to the first half of the 20th century to see how one great Jewish leader explained what the stakes here are really all about in his Evidence Submitted To The Palestine Royal Commission in London in 1937.

Still recovering from the murderous pogroms and massive Jewish refugee problem which accompanied them just a bit earlier, it had by now become evident that even worse was yet to come. Let's listen to how this Zionist leader dealt with all of this:

Three generations of Jewish thinkers...have come to the conclusion that the cause of our suffering is the very fact of the Diaspora, the bedrock fact that we are everywhere a minority...The phenomenon called Zionism may include all kinds of dreams...but all of this longing for wonderful toys of velvet and silver is nothing compared with that tangible momentum of irresistible distress and need by which we are propelled and borne...
Whenever I hear a Zionist...accused of asking too much...I really cannot understand it...Yes we do want a State; every nation on earth...they all have States of their own...the normal condition of a people. Yet, when we, the most abnormal of peoples, and therefore the most unfortunate, ask for only the same...then it is called too much...We have got to save millions, many millions. I do not know whether it is a question of one third...half...or a quarter (indeed, one third of world Jewry would be eliminated within just a few years of his remarks).
I have the profoundest feeling for the Arab case, in so far as that case is not exaggerated...I have also shown to you...that...there is no question of ousting the Arabs. On the contrary, the idea is that Palestine on both sides of the Jordan should hold the Arabs...and...Jews. What I do not deny is that in that process the Arabs of Palestine will become...a minority...What I do deny is that that is a hardship.
It is not a hardship on any race, any nation possessing so many National States now and so many more National States in the future. One fraction, one branch...and not a big one, will have to live in someone else's State: Well, that is the case with all the mightiest nations of the world...That is only normal and there is no "hardship" attached to that. So when we hear the Arab claim confronted with the Jewish claim, I fully understand that any minority would prefer to be a majority.
It is quite understandable that the Arabs...would also prefer Palestine to be the Arab State No. 4, No. 5. or No. 6...but when the Arab claim is confronted with our Jewish demand to be saved, it is like the claims of appetite versus...starvation.
The presenter of this evidence was Ze'ev Vladimir Jabotinsky, the patron saint of Israel's modern Likud Party. And, as can be seen above, unlike too many other Zionist thinkers, he was a realist regarding what could and what could not be expected in the Jews' relationships with Arabs.

As Jabotinsky correctly forecasted, Arabs made out quite well after the break up of the Turks' centuries'-old Empire at the end of World War I. To date, they have almost two dozen states. And, again, most of those had been conquered and forcibly Arabized from millions of Berbers, Copts, Kurds, Jews, Assyrians, native Semitic but non-Arab Lebanese, black Africans, and other non-Arab peoples.

Appetite, indeed, Mr. Jabotinsky...and at everyone else's expense.

One more time...

Arabs declared the region to be purely Arab patrimony, frequently outlawed others' languages and cultures, and killed anyone who stood in their way...millions to date, and still going on at this very moment--and not only in Darfur and the Sudan.

No, Dr. Rice...there's nothing noble in such a self-centered, murderous cause.

As in Jabotinsky's day, now, and before, this conflict has never been about Jews wanting to deny Arabs their just rights.

On the contrary, it's always been about Arabs not allowing any one else--be they Kurds, Jews, Berbers, black African Sudanese, or others--even a tiny sliver of those very same rights they so fervently demand for themselves. There's nothing noble about this. It is at the very least ruthless, genocidal, racist, imperialistic, and so forth...

Despite the passage of time, Jabotinsky's basic truths do not change.

The Arab-Jewish (or Arab-Kurdish, Arab-Berber, Arab-black African Sudanese, and so forth) conflict is still all about Jabotinsky's appetite versus starvation...a conquering, subjugating appetite on the part of the Arabs to deny any one else besides themselves their own share of justice in the region.

So, Dr. Rice, despite your Department's pipedreams or deliberate undermining of Israel (with the apparent blessing of your leader--whom I voted for--and not that the Democrats would be any better and would probably, in fact, be worse), the basic truths of this struggle do not change.

The Arab-Jewish conflict is still all about appetite versus starvation.

And there is nothing noble in forcing the most persecuted nation and people this planet has ever seen into taking steps towards suicide so that Arabs can have their 22nd state.

43.

If the palestenians took control over the land without an oppressive regime to control them, they would kill and blow up each other, because they are crazy religious animals, fatah vs. hamas vs. PLO vs. Al-aqsa. Isreal pulled out of the Gaza Strip and they then proceeded to kill each other. like animals.

44.

dude! stop pasting books into the comment thread! Noone is reading them!

45.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

46.

Who Are We?

We are Arabs and Moslems who believe:

We can support Israel and still support the Palestinian people. Supporting one does not cancel support for the other.
We can support the State of Israel and the Jewish religion and still treasure our Arab and Islamic culture.
There are many Jews and Israelis who freely express compassion and support for the Palestinians. We Arabs also express reciprocal compassion and support.
The existence of the State of Israel is a fact that we accept.
Israel is a legitimate state that is not a threat but an asset in the Middle East.
Every major World religion has a center of gravity. Islam has Mecca, and Judaism certainly deserves its presence in Israel and Jerusalem.
Diversity is a virtue not only in the USA, but would be beneficial around the world. We support a diverse Middle East with protection for human rights, respect and equality under the law to all minorities, including Jews and Christians.
Palestinians have several options but are deprived from exercising them because of their leadership, the Arab League and surrounding Arab and Moslem countries who have other goals besides seeing Palestinians live in harmony with Israel.
If Palestinians want democracy they can start practicing it now.
It will benefit Arabs to end the boycott of Israel.
We can resolve our conflicts using non-violent means. Sending our young people on suicide/homicide missions as a form of Jihad is a distortion of Islam. We can do better.
We are appalled by the horrific act of terror against the USA on 9/11/2001.
It will be better for Arabs when the Arab media ends the incitement and misinformation that result in Arab street rage and violence. We support the Arab media providing coverage of ways that people of all religions are and can live together in harmony.
We are eager to see major reformation in how Islam is taught and channeled to bring out the best in Moslems and contribute to the uplifting of the human spirit and advancement of civilization.
We believe in freedom to choose or change one’s Religion.
We cherish and acknowledge the beauty and contributions of the Middle East culture, but recognize that the Arab/Moslem world is in desperate need of constructive self-criticism and reform.
We seek dialogue with Israel. We invite you to join us on a path of love.
We are NOT:

Anti-Islam, Anti-Arab, confrontational or hateful.
We remember with deep sadness and respect the brave Arabs, known and unknown, who were killed or severely punished for promoting peace with Israel; a special thanks to President Anwar Sadat of Egypt who was killed at the hands of Militant and Radical Islamists after he signed the peace treaty with Israel.

We salute and commend Arab and Moslem writers, scholars and speakers, who found the strength, commitment and honesty in their hearts to speak out in support of Israel. We thank you for being the pioneers that you are and for holding such sophisticated and advanced views in the realm of Arab and Moslem thinking. You are inspiring us all.

ARABS AND MOSLEMS WHO WISH TO POST THEIR VIEWS IN SUPPORT OF ISRAEL CAN DO SO BY EMAILING US. WE WILL THEN POST THEM ANONYMOUSLY, IF THEY WISH. Please send all correspondence to: nonie@arabsforisrael.com

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Quran:28:4 Behold, Pharaoh exalted himself in the land and divided its people into castes. Asad(28,3) [3] One group of them he deemed utterly low (The Children of Israel); he would slaughter their sons and spare (only) their women: Asad(28,4) [4] for, behold, he was one of those who spread corruption [on earth].

Quran: 28:5 And We (G-d) wished to be Gracious to those (The Children of Israel) who were being depressed in the land, to make them guiding lights for others and make them heirs.

A message from T.Hamid: If G-d himself wants to be gracious to the Children of Israel should not I also be Gracious to them! May G-d bless them all and keep them for the world to make it better and better.

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Israel in the Quran

2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations. 2:122 O Children of Israel! call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.

7:137 And We made the children of Israel, who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We leveled to the ground the great works and fine
buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). 17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":
10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai, and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.

26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)

45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favored them above all other nations.

44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, “ scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.

(Comment : This last verse proves that the Quran is declaring that it is the will of G-d himself to gather the children of Israel again in their promised land before the end days. Accordingly, No Muslim has the right to interfere with gathering the Jews in Israel again as this is the will of G-d himself. In addition, Honest analysis of the Quranic verses above leads to the conclusion that the West Bank and Gaza are better called the “occupied” Israeli land.

Tarek Hamid

47.

What I learned from Jews

By: Nonie Darwish

This week begins the Jewish New Year of 5765, celebrated as Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. I know very little about the Jewish Religion, but I understand the significance of this holiday. Even though I am not Jewish, my thought is that everyone can benefit from this holiday. I learned from my Jewish friends that it is actually a period of ten days, from the Eve of Rosh Hashanah through the day of Yom Kippur. This period is called “The ten days of Repentance” in Jewish tradition.

The concept of examining oneself from within to see that an individual as well as the community, is responsible for their actions and their self improvement, sounds both very alien, yet attractive to me and my cultural background.

I was born a Muslim and raised in Cairo Egypt and the Gaza strip. This was back in the 1950’s, when classical more moderate Islam was prevalent. However, the concept of examining oneself deeply without fear of repercussions was sorely lacking in Muslim religious education as a whole. I am not sure if Islam influenced Arab culture or Arab culture influenced Islam but one of the basic driving forces in Arab society is shame and pride.

I moved to the United States in 1978 and came with the usual preconceived biases, indoctrination and baggage from a Middle East upbringing; Fear of Jews, of government, people in power, and fear of speaking my mind. Having lived through the 56, 67 and 73 wars with Israel took away my feelings of trust and security. However, living in America made it easy for me to change and look objectively within myself, my history and my culture of origin. Now I run a new website called ArabsforIsrael.com

Eventually, I decided to try this wonderful Jewish tradition of self reflection and taking stock of oneself, and apply it to myself and my culture of origin. To courageously stand and admit to oneself and to the world one’s sins, bad choices and engage them head on, to correct and repent, is hard for most people in any culture, however, I am sad to say that it is inconceivable and unheard of in Muslim culture. The fact of the matter is that speaking, even to oneself, of one’s shortcomings and examining one’s responsibilities first before blaming others would bring shame, disgrace and dishonor not only to the individual but to his or her entire family. Those who admit fault or guilt, even if it is unintended, are regarded as fools and if the mistake is a cultural taboo one’s reputation might be scarred for life and the person might end up brutally punished

In Arab society, we were discouraged from sinning out of fear from an angry God, the flames of hell and society’s cruel punishment awaiting sinners right here on earth. There was no reward for loving humanity as whole, self improvement and bringing out the best of the human spirit. Pleasing the brutal dictators to get favoritism and wealth at the expense of the majority population was the common thing to do. “Stepping on each other to rise to the top” was never the center piece of sinful behavior in the mosque Friday prayers. Evil and the enemy was always out there and never in here. Arabs were always proud to talk about the old glory and their old contributions to the world and suppressed discussion and examination of what Arab society can do to end terrorism. Those who had had the courage to be self-critical were harshly punished. Because of the fear of shame and facing the truth about the negatives in Arab and Muslim culture, they allowed evil to dominate all aspects of Arab and Muslim society. No one can deny the current sad state of the Middle East’s dysfunctional society. Terrorism in every Muslim country and poisoning the world, war, genocide on both Muslims and non-Muslims such as in the Sudan, Algeria, the Kurds, Kuwait etc. The burning of churches then taking refuge in Muslim holy shrines, beheading of Jews, destruction of the Buddha temples, brutal dictatorships and weak economies go without outrage in the Arab media. Despite wealth from oil, the Muslim world is among the poorest in the world.

Pollution and garbage are all around the great Nile Valley, unemployment is rampant and nothing can get done without bribery. Arab media forgives and ignores all these problems and is preoccupied with destroying Israel. This is the sad situation in the Middle East where countries like Egypt cannot survive without the generous US aid. Blaming everyone and anyone but themselves was the only wise thing to do in a culture that gave no appreciation for accepting responsibility. Today it has metastasized it dominated a billion and a half Muslim around the world.

The only option for survival in such a culture is to always deny wrongdoing and tell yourself “you did not do it” until you believe it. Thus Israel becomes the useful enemy that Arabs blame for everything; even the last terrorist attack on Russian children was blamed by some on yet another Jewish conspiracy. After defending and supporting Israel in my articles I was also accused of being part of an Israeli conspiracy. At a time when most religions struggle to explain evil in the world, Radical Islam found the answer, without hesitation, they say it is the Jews. Just listen to most Friday sermons in mosques all around the Muslim world. In these sermons week after week, there is one theme that keeps repeating itself: The Jews are responsible for all that is wrong in Arab society and Arabs are not responsible for their failures. It is all their fault is what ends every mosque sermon.

Jews do not wish each other a “Happy New Year” on Rosh Hashana, the way we are all used to on every January 1. The traditional Hebrew greeting is “Shanah Tovah”, which means a “good year” or “a year of goodness.” The greeting stresses the yearning for goodness and the desire of living a good life; a life committed to improving the world and relationships. I am in awe when I hear my Jewish friends speak and explain the teachings of their faith. During these “10 days of Repentance.”

I want to repent and personally apologize to Jews around the world on their High Holidays. I also want to thank them and their culture for their many contributions to humanity. I am grateful for their teaching me this great tradition that so many of us non-Jews need to reflect upon. We all need to examine ourselves from inside, bring out the good and see what we have accomplished as members of the human race.

We all learn from each other on this small planet of ours, and that is good. Much of the early Islamic thought and practices were based on what the Prophet Mohammed observed from the Jewish tribes of Mecca and Medina, who were a significant part of the life and culture of the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century. Let us revive a gracious cultural exchange, appreciation and understanding. May the New Year bring to our reality some of our expectations and may it bring us more together.

Nonie Darwish

48.

Don't forget Israeli contributions to the Sciences, Arts, Engineering, sports, Hip-Hop, Military, Musical, Agricultural, Electronic, Diplomatic, Aid, Pharmeceutical and most importantly REAL ESTATE intelligence and innovations.

The Arabs' ultimate wish is for a "Jew-Free" Israel where they can grow crops (that will likely shrivel and die without proper irrigation) on the former site of Ben Gurion Airport. In other words, you take Israel out of the world equation, you bring humanity back to the Stone Ages and Barbarism.

Only 1 "Palestenian" has won a Nobel Prize. Where is it? It is in a junkyard somewhere in Gaza along with any hope of a "State" for the Arab Migrants to Israel.

49.

Should Israel also kick out of Israel the 1 million Arab Israeli citizens who live in peace and are afforded the rights of citizenship? Does anybody seriously believe that any Arab country, especially "Palestine", would offer any rights to Jews living in its midst? Actually, you can't even VISIT certain countries as a TOURIST if you are Jewish or if you have been to Israel. You think Israeli withdrawal will result in peace? Have you been reading the news the last two months?!?

It's crazy how blindsided people are to Arab propaganda and the culture of victimhood. You want a state, you want civility and respect, do something (anything!) to earn it. Israel has many times over "earned" its right to exist. Contributions to medicine, industry, technology, etc., you name it. Dozens of Nobel prizes. Israel takes the limited "peace" it has won and makes something good of it. Palestinians take the peace that's repeatedly offered to them and throw it away, prefering. Israel vacated Gaza and Americans generously donated greenhouses to the residents of Gaza to grow food. The Palestinian reaction? Greenhouses were trashed the next day, and now we've had a mini civil-war with "political opponents" being thrown from the roofs of apartment buildings. The Palestinians deserve nothing until they show some maturity and self-discipline. Sending your naive children onto buses to blow up other kids is obscene and cowardly. It takes real courage to get over events that happened 60 years ago to your parents and grandparents and to do what's right for your people and your family. But the leaders don't allow the people to move ahead; they are just obsessed with revenge for the wars of generations past. It makes me want to throw up, but not as much as those Americans who, seemingly reasonable in other contexts, appear to support the cause of these animals.

50.

1. Anyone else currently regretting that people can post anonymous comments?

2. This is "Curbed" people! Not "Middle-Easted". Unless you have intel on a apartment prices in the German Colony or a hot tip on a new development in Jericho, please spare us!

51.

hey number 21, there aren't very many hipsters in this part of Williamsburg - it's Satmar territory. I'm for anything that isn't another condo.

thought this site was about real estate what with the showdown over the Middle East?????

52.

hey number 21, there aren't very many hipsters in this part of Williamsburg - it's Satmar territory. I'm for anything that isn't another condo.

thought this site was about real estate what's with the showdown over the Middle East?????

53.

the people who were living there pre-1948 would be awful mad now wouldnt they? come on - how would you like to be living on mohammed street and one day after some battles they take the sign down and now its ben gurion street?

so this is why the israeli war of independence is not over by a long shot even tho the israelis threw up a flag in 1948 and tried to say it was. it is not and will not be for a long time. there is no such thing as terrorism in a long running hot war, only terrorist tactics (which are among the military tactics of war, ie., kamikazees).

otoh, you have to be very proud of isreal. the blame here is squarely at the feet of the damn euros who murdered their jews and kicked them out. the arabs living there are all like "thanks a lot you jerks we don't want'em either."

quite a messy problem over there thanks solely to the murderous parents of today's eurotrash.

54.

I'm kinda irritated that what's normally a site dedicated to RE is now some backass debate reminiscient of a college dorm hallway.

BUT...with that said, why is it everywhere there's a conflict on this earth, there's an Islamic Fundamentalist with his hand on the trigger?

And by the way, the #1 reason for murder in the West Bank? You guessed it. Honor killings.

55.

These postings are as onerous as the building. Keep it real, people.

56.

There was no Mohammed Street you dip-shit-- even though I realize it was being used as a metaphor, it's still fucking stupid.

They didn't "throw up" a flag in 1948, they were given that right, they earned it. Ever heard of something called history asshole? The indigenous people of what's currently referred to as "palestine" are the Bedouins. They had no issue with the state of israel- so what's your problem with it dick brain?

57.

When the United Nations proposed the establishment of two states in the region—one Jewish, one Arab—the Jews accepted the proposal and declared their independence in 1948. The Jewish state constituted only 1/6 of one percent of what was known as "the Arab world." The Arab states, however, rejected the UN plan and since then have waged war against Israel repeatedly, both all-out wars and wars of terrorism and attrition. In 1948, five Arab armies invaded Israel in an effort to eradicate it. Jamal Husseini of the Arab Higher Committee spoke for many in vowing to soak "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood."

58.

Actually if you look at the sign, the school will be for the Viznitz sect of Hasidim, not the Satmars - although I believe that the Viznitz are also anti-Israel. What the last line line actually says is "TO teach Torah and a love of Israel and Viznitz" and when they say Israel, they mean Bnei Yisrael (THe sons of Jacob, ie the jews), not the State of Israel. So while this whole Israel-Palestinian debate has been very enlightening, it is not only irrelevent to new york real estate, but alos irrlelvent to anything having to do with the posting.

59.

On May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion completed the capture of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, the site of numerous ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple, destroyed by the Romans in the year 70 AD. These were and remain the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

The Hurva Synagogue, attributed to Rabbi Moses Ben Nahman (Ramban), was the main synagogue in Jerusalem in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (and possibly much earlier), until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 because of Muslim incitement. It was burned by Arabs in 1721 (Hurva = destruction in Hebrew), but again rebuilt by Zionists in the 19th century, becoming the most prominent synagogue on the Jerusalem skyline. For that reason, when it was captured by the Arab Legion during the battle for Old Jerusalem in 1948, they dynamited it to show that they controlled the Jewish Quarter. When the Jews in New Jerusalem saw the Hurva burning, they knew that Jewish life in the Quarter had ended (again).

60.

When the 1948 war ended, and negotiations began, the Israeli representatives emphasized regaining access to Jewish Jerusalem. Article VIII of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement, signed on April 3, 1949, called for the establishment of a Special Committee:

... composed of two representatives of each Party for the purpose of formulating agreed plans" including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
Hopes were high that Jews might visit the Western Wall for Passover 1949, but the Jordanians violated the Armistice Agreement. These clauses were never honored. Promises continued to be made, and Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion, pledged that:

Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations would be two separate cities with free trade and exchange between each other. The Arabs would be perfectly willing to allow the Jews to have access to their shrines, notably the Wailing Wall, now inside the Arab-held Old City.
The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

During the Jordanian occupation of Hebron from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue

Although there were numerous discussions of this issue, and Israeli complaints, the Jordanians refused to honor the agreement, and the UN did not pass any resolutions against this treatment of Jewish religious institutions.

61.

Free Williamsburg!

62.

"These postings are as onerous as the building." The building is burdensome? nice try with the fancy words

63.

As Virgin Mobile would say, "Jews, you rule."

64.

Palestine, now occupied and named Israel, lies on the western edge of Asia. Lebanon and Syria borders Palestine on the north, theMap of the partition plan of Palestine Mediterranean sea to the west, to the south by the Gulf of Aqaba and the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula, and to the east by the Kingdom of Jordan. A Mediterranean climate prevails in Palestine. Summers are hot and dry. Winters are rainy and cold. The weather in Gaza is fair and warm in winter, and hot and dry in the summer. The average temperature in the West Bank in the summer is 29 degrees Celsius, in winter it is 12 degrees Celsius. Click here for more details about the geography of Palestine.

Three currencies are used in Palestine, The Jordanian Dinar, the American dollar and the Israeli shekel. The official language is Arabic, but the majority speak English and many speak Hebrew, French and some Latin. Here are some more cultural aspects in Palestine.

Historically, the land of Palestine was populated by a people known as the Palestinians. Palestinians have always been religiously diverse, with the Muslim majority maintaining friendly relations with their Christian, Jewish, and Druze neighbors. At the turn of the 20th Century, a new Jewish nationalist ideology called Zionism was developing. Zionism called for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. During this time, increasing numbers of Jewish Europeans immigrated to Palestine, causing the Jewish population to grow from a tiny minority to 35% of the population.***

As of January, 2003, the number of Palestinians worldwide is 9.3 million, of them, 3.6 million reside in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and eastern Jerusalem, and 4.6 million in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and other countries. 2.3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, 1.3 million in the Gaza Strip and 1 million in Israel. 2.7 million Palestinians live in Jordan, 423,000 in Syria, 403,000 in Lebanon, 578,000 in other Arab states, 223,000 in the US and 295,000 in the rest of the world. It is predicted that the number of Palestinians worldwide will double in 22 years to 18.6 million.**

War is good business, invest your $on

In 1920, following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, Palestine fell under western occupation, political boundaries were forced upon the region for the first time in nearly 2,000 years under the British occupation, conveniently named "Mandate". Today this geographical area is divided into Israel (established in May 1948 over land carved out of historic Palestine by western powers using the UN all without consulting with the local Palestinian population), the West Bank (including eastern Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip (on the south western corner of the country bordering Egypt) both of which Israel occupied in 1967. The struggle between the Israelis and the Palestinians is one of the longest and most enduring and explosive of all the world's conflicts. For the Palestinians the last 100 years have brought colonization, expulsion and military occupation, followed by a long and difficult search for self-determination. For the Jewish Israelis, they believe to be the land of their forefathers, after centuries of persecution around the world, the return to this self proclaimed "home land" has not brought peace or security. After decades of living under occupation, a popular Palestinian uprising (Intifada 1987 - 1992) against Israeli rule, brought about various peace negotiations the first of which was the Oslo (Madrid) peace process. Palestinian cities, villages, and most of the 19 official refugee camps were transferred to a self-governing Palestinian Authority under the Oslo 'peace process.' The area, however, remained under Israeli occupation with full Israeli military control.*

The Palestinian Israeli conflict is the single issue that has generated the largest number of United Nations resolutions, the Palestinian problem has loomed large on the international scene, even though Palestine can be described as a small territory, and the Palestinians—the indigenous Arab people of Palestine— a relatively small population. In 1967, the former Soviet bloc countries cut diplomatic ties with Israel as a consequence of the June War of that year. Indeed, many Third World governments expelled the Israeli diplomatic missions from their capitals and offered their premises to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), internationally recognized in 1974 as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. Since the end of the cold war, most countries have restored diplomatic relations with Israel. New nations born out of the collapse of the Soviet Union fostered relations with Israel and the PLO alike.*
Support the Palestinians' right to return, Free PalestineShow your support to the Palestinian people in their struggle to get what you and I have as a birth right, freedom, statehood, dignity, sovereignty and the right to live in their own homes. Support their rights to return to their homes. Help them free Palestine.

Only Israel, the United States, and a few U.S. allies, clients, and dependencies continued to deny recognition of the Palestinians as a people with the PLO as their legitimate representative. Prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the long-held position of the United States and Israel, combined with the rise in international influence of the Palestinians since 1967, often placed the U.S. government in an untenable position. Combine that with the Palestinian Intifada against Israeli occupation that exploded in December 1987, and the Gulf War of 1991, the USA found itself in a position where it had to do some serious work towards peace between Israel and the Palestinians.*map of the West Bank and Gaza

Hence, the United States, as the remaining superpower, launched a more sustained ‘peace process’ in 1991, after the Gulf War. This effort, spearheaded by then Secretary of State James Baker, culminated in the 1991 Madrid peace conference, which brought to the negotiating table Israel, the surrounding Arab states, and representatives of the Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (but not the PLO, because of both Israeli and U.S. objections). The Madrid peace conference, followed by eleven rounds of bilateral and multilateral negotiations in Washington, DC, and elsewhere, reached an impasse that lasted until September 13, 1993, when the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles (the Oslo Accords) were signed. The handshake between Yasser Arafat, chairman of the Executive Committee of the PLO, and Yitzhak Rabin, prime minister of Israel, following the signing initiated a new reality that would change the nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the future of the Palestinians and the Middle East for generations to come.*

65.

F all of you, jeez

66.

This is the greatest thread ever!

67.

Anyway, everyone knows that there was never a country called Palestine. The place you call Palestine is the original home of the Israelites. Therefore, Israel has an absolute right to exist. Duh!

68.

I thought this was a comment thread about the project mentioned in the article, you people have displayed phenomenal cut and paste skills....props curbed loyalists...lame.

69.

I assure you that I am not a retard.

70.

You guys need to chill. This is supposed to be a place to discuss the merits of NYC real estates, and not a political forum. Personally, I think the building is ugly. But hey, this is just my opinion. No flames please.

71.

bing the retard

72.

aaron the retard

73.

Anonymous the retard

74.

How the hell did this whole cluster get started? Just drop it already, people.

http://mikeelliottsblog.wordpress.com

75.

I think that this is a much nicer building than a lot of contemporary "Brooklyn-Queens" architecture (as documented in the "Brownstoner" and "Queens Crap" blogs. Yes, shades of Robert A M Stern (who IIRC has done at least one synagogue, Bedford and K in Midwood). Wonder who it is (suspect Bricolage). Hope the finished product is faithful to the rendering. I would like to know who the architect is.

For all the above pro-anti Jewish/Zionist bickering, it's interesting to note that many if not most Williamsburg Hasidim are non/anti-Zionist.

This building is being built for one of the branches of the "Vizhnitz" community. More on them here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizhnitz_%28Hasidic_dynasty%29

76.

If you're not happy with Israel, then go back to the Midwestern (or Middle Eastern?) hick town you came from.

77.

Where would Israel without my US tax dollars? It would not exist.
Israel=US$$$$

Why don't all the Jews who support Israel so much, live there? They support Israel more than they support the US.

78.

Bing, i pee on you.

79.

Way to go Bing!

80.

"Where would Israel without my US tax dollars? It would not exist."

Where would you like your tax dollars to go? Saudi Arabia? How about Syria? The country that sponsors Holocaust Denial Seminars. How about Egypt? They run a mini-series every Ramadan, that details among other things how Rabbi's suck the blood of children.

Don't worry your pea-sized brain about Israel-- they're doing just fine, with or without our dollars.

81.

I think this is the satmer temple that will never be completed because the 2 sons of the main rabbi who recently died are fighting over who is the new leader. The fight has torn the satmer into two groups and it is basically a still mate. Also this whole isreal/palastien thing on this blog is silly and out of place (not that it is not a valid topic else where) because if it's my understanding the satmer don't even support isreal and often times will protest against isreal. Interesting to see how quickly these things erupt though.

82.

#80, Israel will be fine without our $2.4 billion you will be sucking from our teets i